BaL 20.02.21 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 6

[Ein Heldenleben]

With a 17' majestoso (slower than Klemperer & with almost no variation...sort of thing clichés such as "marmoreal" or "monumental" were coined for... in this case, possibly with some justification) and a 22' adagio (exhausting, rather than beggaring, description) it is rather important to hear the whole Celibidache performance...
Assuming you can get through it in one go.........

A Brucknerian conception (or "vision" as Celi's devotees would prefer) based almost entirely on sound, ranking far below Klemperer for me in symphonic, overall-architectural-coherence, let alone cogency. It won't be coming off my shelf anytime soon.

I listened to the Celibidache this afternoon having heard the Klemperer earlier in the week. He definitely takes those opening repeated violin notes quicker than Klemperer to my ears. Tom Service has a long explanation of why Celi gets away with an Overall slower tempo - to do with line and destination- that I won’t attempt to précis .
I was really impressed with Celi’s performance and I was expecting that to be the case . I seem to remember a live relay once where he spent 5 minutes supervising the tuning of the orchestra section by section starting with the double basses and thought this is a conductor who prepares unbelievably thoroughly.

[Richard Barrett]

Well, Celi was a genius. I do wish though that his Bruckner symphonies in Munich had been recorded a little more warmly. The first movement of his Bruckner 6 may be "slow" but it doesn't feel slow to me. He gives the music the space it needs for the musicians to be able to respond to one another in a chamber-musical kind of way. (Not everyone would agree of course that this is an ideal to be aimed at.) What the tempo actually is in beats per minute isn't really relevant IMO.

[Nick Armstrong]

Well, Celi was a genius. I do wish though that his Bruckner symphonies in Munich had been recorded a little more warmly. The first movement of his Bruckner 6 may be "slow" but it doesn't feel slow to me. He gives the music the space it needs for the musicians to be able to respond to one another in a chamber-musical kind of way. (Not everyone would agree of course that this is an ideal to be aimed at.) What the tempo actually is in beats per minute isn't really relevant IMO.

“Lit from within” quoth T. Service

[PJPJ]

I’ve tried again with this recording, I just find it moribund, however well-played and recorded. I just don’t get it at all.

I hastened through this BAL, dwelling on the extracts but fast-forwarding through a lot of the breathless commentary by TS to whom I’m afraid I remain allergic. A pity, as I warm to his basic mindset against pasteurised, homogenised Bruckner.

Blomstedt & Furtwängler remain in the ears; I have the Jochum/Dresden box but don’t think I ever listened to the 6th from it so that probably needs to be rectified.

Is this the Jochum Dresden box you have, or an earlier release?

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8762019--bruckner-the-symphonies

P

[Nick Armstrong]

Is this the Jochum Dresden box you have, or an earlier release?

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8762019--bruckner-the-symphonies

P

No - the earlier EMI box that looks like this:

[edashtav]

Amongst my own Bruckner sixes, I have Klemperer's; although I am very much a Klempy fan, I find his Bruckner (and Mahler) not amongst his best 'engravings'

Ticiati - not to my taste at all; too much of a spring in his step.

Blomstedt - loved the extract(s) played.

Celibidache - to my own total surprise, I found this very tempting indeed.

I agree with much of the above: I have the Jochum / Dresden S. set in an early pressing and the Berne SO / Venzago CD. Poor Tom Service was badly served by his enthusiasm and I found his welter of words overwhelming. It did concern me that his views were already predictable to avid readers of the Guardian; I would have rejoiced to have heard evidence of their revision, e.g. some consideration of the Bergen PO / Dausgaard issue.

I was impressed by Furtwangler’s ability to spin musical sentences into coherent paragraphs and Celi’s care with blend and balance.

I felt TS’s recommendation was an interim award, and that we must remain on the qui vive for an interpretation and recording that stand head and shoulders over the rest of the field.

[jayne lee wilson]

I agree with much of the above: I have the Jochum / Dresden S. set in an early pressing and the Berne SO / Venzago CD. Poor Tom Service was badly served by his enthusiasm and I found his welter of words overwhelming. It did concern me that his views were already predictable to avid readers of the Guardian; I would have rejoiced to have heard evidence of their revision, e.g. some consideration of the Bergen PO / Dausgaard issue.

I was impressed by Furtwangler’s ability to spin musical sentences into coherent paragraphs and Celi’s care with blend and balance.

I felt TS’s recommendation was an interim award, and that we must remain on the qui vive for an interpretation and recording that stand head and shoulders over the rest of the field.

I wouldn't look for one of those (I would always want at least three categories: historical, mainstream, "revisionist"), but among the recent and newly refreshed, the Yannick Nézet-Séguin 6th is truly exceptional (see #152 above). (I admired it when it first appeared, and this revisit, in the challenging new light of several other very fine releases since, has more than confirmed my initial response).

Shame that I seem to be in a club-of-one for even hearing it, let alone admiring it. YNS has been, thus far, an inconsistent Brucknerian (though, uniquely, with TWO outstanding 1873 3rds to his name (Metropolitan (2014) & a stunning sounding live Dresden one (2008), with fascinating differences, not always in Dresden's favour).
He takes his time over the 3rd, but serves the music, not his own meditational vision of it, as I feel the Munich Celi tends to do generally). And he tries to characterise each symphony individually, rather than imposing an interpretive style upon Bruckner. So far with mixed results, but there's plenty of time....

One of the precious, happy 6ths that gets pretty much everything right, on its own terms and on Bruckner's. So if I had to choose just one.....

[Ein Heldenleben]

I wouldn't look for one of those (I would always want at least three categories: historical, mainstream, "revisionist"), but among the recent and newly refreshed, Yannick Nezet-Seguin is truly exceptional.
Shame that I seem to be in a club of one for even hearing it, let alone admiring it.....

Must listen . There was a repeat of YNS’s prom performance of Bruckner 4 with the Rotterdam Phil on Through The Night (last week? ) which makes me think he has an exceptional affinity for Bruckner ....

[Nick Armstrong]

Poor Tom Service was badly served by his enthusiasm

That’s one way of putting it

[ardcarp]

...and of course he was served up in Music Matters not long after.

[Loathecliff]

My first post in such distinguished company, and I'm feeling cheated; for circa 56 years!
I've spent a week once more delving into No.6 & yesterday spotted the Keilberth BPO Telefunken (TelDec) issue recorded in 1963.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xycI0Wz_YXA&t=3016s

I didn't know it existed. Why?! Released shortly before the awful Klumperer & it's magnificent imvho.
An HvK-free BPO are captured with superb (Decca tree?) engineering.
Even the last movement makes sense, & is a joy.
I'm just finished my fourth listen. I'm not even minding the perfunctory sounding string phrasing at 20 & 28:50 now.
Thank you Joseph Keilberth. IMHO your insight into a masterpiece was criminally neglected when you were on this crazy planet.

Apologies. This is a way OTT first post. Maybe it's my age

[Richard Barrett]

Thank you Joseph Keilberth. IMHO your insight into a masterpiece was criminally neglected when you were on this crazy planet.

Very interesting, thanks. It's always good to have new and fresh insights coming in.

I find that much (though of course not all) of my preference for one Bruckner interpretation over another comes down to particular nuances of balance between instruments at key moments, something that also takes in the spatial relationships between orchestral sections (which is why I'm not really interested in hearing the music in mono); and this is where Celi really excels in no.6. The balance between trumpets and the rest of the brass section, for example, often makes the difference between something that sounds like bombastic blaring and something more balanced between high and low, bright and dark, while retaining the identity of each component in the mix. I think issues like this are especially relevant to the first movement of no.6. That's the kind of moment I'm always listening for (from the first brass entry onwards).

[Ein Heldenleben]

Very interesting, thanks. It's always good to have new and fresh insights coming in.

I find that much (though of course not all) of my preference for one Bruckner interpretation over another comes down to particular nuances of balance between instruments at key moments, something that also takes in the spatial relationships between orchestral sections (which is why I'm not really interested in hearing the music in mono); and this is where Celi really excels in no.6. The balance between trumpets and the rest of the brass section, for example, often makes the difference between something that sounds like bombastic blaring and something more balanced between high and low, bright and dark, while retaining the identity of each component in the mix. I think issues like this are especially relevant to the first movement of no.6. That's the kind of moment I'm always listening for (from the first brass entry onwards).

That is a very good point . Given his tuning meticulousness I wonder whether he did sectional rehearsals with the brass to get the balance right.

[BBMmk2]

I have, at the top of my head, three. All of which I’m totally satisfied with. Lorin Maazel, Bernard Haitink, and Eugen. Jochum(DG).

[jonfan]

Welcome, Loathecliff, good to have you on board.
Bruckner, being such a shy person, would be so proud that discussion of his 6th Symphony has elicited 21 pages, and counting, of discussion on this thread.