BaL 20.02.21 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 6

[vinteuil]

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... jayne - glad you have been enjoying the Adler 6th. The discothèque idéale de Diapason 14 CD box devoted to Bruckner is an interesting and useful collection - it has for the symphonies :

1 (1868, ed Haas 1935) Georg Ludwig Jochum / RIAS 1956
2 (1877, ed Haas 1938) Franz Konwitschny / Berliner Rundfunk SO 1951
3 (1888/89, ed Raettig 1890) Kurt Sanderling / Gewandhaus Leipzig 1963
4 (1881, ed Haas 1936) Hermann Abendroth / Rundfunk SO Leipzig 1949
5 (1878, ed Haas 1935) Hermann Abendroth / Rundfunk SO Leipzig 1949
5 (1878, ed Nowak 1951) Eugen Jochum / Bayerischen Rundfunk SO 1958
6 (revised Hynais, ed Doblinger 1899) F Charles Adler / Wiener Symphoniker 1952
7 (1885, ed Gutmann 1885) Eugen Jochum / Berliner Philharmoniker 1952
7 (1885, ed Gutmann 1885) Karl Bohm / Wiener Philharmoniker 1943
8 (Furtwangler version after Haas) Wilhelm Furtwangler / Wiener Philharmoniker 1944
9 (1894, ed Orel 1932) Wilhelm Furtwangler / Berliner Philharmoniker 1944
9 (1894, ed Nowak 1951) Eduard Van Beinum / Concertgebouw 1956

https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B0776K6R7F

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8604461--bruckner-symphonies-et-messes-la-discotheque-ideale-de-diapason-vol-11

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[Bryn]

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... jayne - glad you have been enjoying the Adler 6th. The discothèque idéale de Diapason 14 CD box devoted to Bruckner is an interesting and useful collection - it has for the symphonies :

1 (1868, ed Haas 1935) Georg Ludwig Jochum / RIAS 1956
2 (1877, ed Haas 1938) Franz Konwitschny / Berliner Rundfunk SO 1951
3 (1888/89, ed Raettig 1890) Kurt Sanderling / Gewandhaus Leipzig 1963
4 (1881, ed Haas 1936) Hermann Abendroth / Rundfunk SO Leipzig 1949
5 (1878, ed Haas 1935) Hermann Abendroth / Rundfunk SO Leipzig 1949
5 (1878, ed Nowak 1951) Eugen Jochum / Bayerischen Rundfunk SO 1958
6 (revised Hynais, ed Doblinger 1899) F Charles Adler / Wiener Symphoniker 1952
7 (1885, ed Gutmann 1885) Eugen Jochum / Berliner Philharmoniker 1952
7 (1885, ed Gutmann 1885) Karl Bohm / Wiener Philharmoniker 1943
8 (Furtwangler version after Haas) Wilhelm Furtwangler / Wiener Philharmoniker 1944
9 (1894, ed Orel 1932) Wilhelm Furtwangler / Berliner Philharmoniker 1944
9 (1894, ed Nowak 1951) Eduard Van Beinum / Concertgebouw 1956

https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B0776K6R7F

https://www.prestomusic.com/classica...iapason-vol-11

Also on QOBUZ: https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/an.../3701025805690

[jayne lee wilson]

Initially, I felt would only be a slight exaggeration to say the SWR Baden-Baden/Rosbaud 1961 6th (SWR Classic CD, from the boxset) is not so much one-basic-tempo Bruckner as only-one-tempo Bruckner. The very moderately paced first movement seems just too steady (16'23 is one of the longer ones out there...).
But though subtle, the rubato is there, and given the excellent orchestral response, I became more involved on repeated hearings. This is an acutely analytical reading, with no detail or contrapuntal line missed or obscured. A study score in sound, perhaps. So from the start, the 2+3 rhythm is exceptionally clear (how often one strains to hear this in other readings as the movement progresses) the main theme lucidly balanced and poised above. (With immediate listener involvement, despite any lack of overt expressiveness).
Using his extraordinary ear, Rosbaud builds the whole movement this way: the transparency and structural grip are truly remarkable, and better than many later recordings.
Dynamics are good too, in clean and clear mono sound.

The 18’+ adagio is very adagio, and almost without any tempo variation. The SWR play very precisely again, with great clarity and some lovely string lines.
But I was starting to miss some flexibility and song, so after the warmth, expressiveness and excitements of Adler and Andreae, I was finding things a little tedious by the trio - rather lacking in affection, humour or a sense of the pastoral as it is.

But - big but - things pick up strikingly in the finale, which is far more exciting and alive, the tempi flexible, rubato keenly following modulation, switches of key and mood. The tension heightened and released, very convincingly, and you feel the whole reading has been aimed at this point, making sense of Rosbaud’s patience in the first movement, the drawing out of the 18’+ adagio, the coolly objective scherzo.
He builds the whole performance so carefully, thinks it all through, sees it with an Eagle's eye..

Interesting how all three of these early recordings (Andreae, Adler, this one) have little trouble with this finale, grasping it, shaping it or playing it in their own distinctive ways, considering how much difficulty many later conductors and listeners appear to have. The Rosbaud account of it is one of the very best I’ve heard.

[silvestrione]

Bruckner has had his detractors over the years. Tovey once notoriously said his counterpoint was that of a “village organist “ . To paraphrase Churchill you can only say “ some village , some organist .”

Again? I must insist, this thread is not the place to have a go at Tovey, who in the mid-1930s, when this symphony was hardly known and not much performed, chose to publish a glowing analysis of a work he clearly loved, finding no faults. Richard Osborne quotes him twice in his liner-notes for the Karajan.

[Bryn]

Again? I must insist, this thread is not the place to have a go at Tovey, who in the mid-1930s, when this symphony was hardly known and not much performed, chose to publish a glowing analysis of a work he clearly loved, finding no faults. Richard Osborne quotes him twice in his liner-notes for the Karajan.

It was revealed as a misattribution, shortly after it was first posted.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I was revealed as a misattribution, shortly after it was first posted.

I think the misattribution you are referring to is the suggestion that Tovey made the disparaging long quarter hours remark that was in fact made by Rossini.

According to Prof Julian Horton in a review of ‘Bruckner Studies ‘ by Hackshaw and Jackson and published (the review that is ) in a 1999 edition of Musical Analysis Tovey’s “village organist” remark comes in the 2nd Vol of Essays In Musical Analysis and he quotes this as Tovey’s words

'Bruckner conceived magnificent openings and Gotterdammerung climaxes, but dragged
along with him throughout his life the apparatus of classical sonata forms as understood by a village organist. “

I don’t have VOL 2 so I can’t check whether this quote is way out of context but given Julian’s academic background ( pre-eminent Bruckner expert and Prof of music at Durham I think we can rely on him ) My original “counterpoint” reference comes from another article I read on JSTOR which irritatingly I can’t find though to be honest criticising AB for his understanding of sonata form appears even wider of the mark than criticising him for his counterpoint.

If you have access to JSTOR Prof Horton’s review is well worth reading as a short summary of how Bruckner’s reputation has changed over the decades.

[Bryn]

. . . If you have access to JSTOR Prof Horton’s review is well worth reading as a short summary of how Bruckner’s reputation as changed over the decades.

Sadly, I have no such access.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Sadly, I have no such access.

No and I honestly can’t see why 20 year old academic articles should still be behind a paywall. Some universities will let you join their library for a pretty small annual fee that sometimes comes with JSTOR access bundled in...

[jayne lee wilson]

No and I honestly can’t see why 20 year old academic articles should still be behind a paywall. Some universities will let you join their library for a pretty small annual fee that sometimes comes with JSTOR access bundled in...

The Cambridge Companion to Bruckner is the locus classicus for such discussions about Bruckner through the decades, regarding Vienna, Conductors and the wider culture. Very wide-ranging - a great read!

In his classic study, Robert Simpson often quotes Tovey on Bruckner, almost always approvingly; the actual quotes from Tovey show that, even if the above "village organist" quote is truthfully attributed, he must have regretted it. The various mentions in Simpson show a deeper understanding; his view must have changed dramatically as he came to hear and know more.

The greater Brucknerian rewards tend to come after time and patience....

***
Just heard the 1976 Wand Edition 6th, the 24/96 remaster last night, with, well, mixed feelings despite the knock-you-for-six sound and ensemble discipline......hope to hear at least one later RCA version soon....

There are various other live Wand 6ths around too....DSO Berlin on Profil, for example...

[Ein Heldenleben]

The Cambridge Companion to Bruckner is the locus classicus for such discussions about Bruckner through the decades, regarding Vienna, Conductors and the wider culture. Very wide-ranging - a great read!

In his classic study, Robert Simpson often quotes Tovey on Bruckner, almost always approvingly; the actual quotes from Tovey show that, even if the above "village organist" quote is truthfully attributed, he must have regretted it. The various mentions in Simpson show a deeper understanding; his view must have changed dramatically as he came to hear and know more.

The greater Brucknerian rewards tend to come after time and patience....

***
Just heard the 1976 Wand Edition 6th, the 24/96 remaster last night, with, well, mixed feelings despite the knock-you-for-six sound and ensemble discipline......hope to hear at least one later RCA version soon....

There are various other live Wand 6ths around too....DSO Berlin on Profil, for example...

I think the village organist remark was a ‘Homer Nods ‘ moment from Tovey . He was a superb critic, musicologist, and educationalist. I’ve been meaning to get the Cambridge Companion for years. Timely post as I’m currently listening to Bruckner 8:Karajan VPO !
Talking of Homer nods quite incredibly the first VPO trumpet has just split a note ...

[jayne lee wilson]

Looking through all the Tovey quotes in The Essence of Bruckner it is more of a mixed bag than I remembered, as Tovey struggles to come to terms with Bruckner's formal originality. But Simpson respects the detailed effort he made, even as he has to correct some of Tovey's imperfect structural descriptions. He goes on to quote some of Tovey''s most apposite and beautiful descriptions of Bruckner, including the 6th.

[silvestrione]

I like the wit:

'He is in no greater hurry at the end of a symphony than at the beginning; and though his finales all begin with ample energy, the first change of key and theme brings about a mood of argument and meditation which will not be bothered by people who want to catch the last train home.'

(From the Bruckner 6 essay by Donald Francis Tovey)

[Richard Barrett]

I like the wit

I don't, it's a typically English brand of haughty trivialisation applied to something serious and foreign.

Most adverse criticism of Bruckner seems to me to boil down to people complaining that Bruckner doesn't do things the way they feel things ought to be done... Bruckner went his own way, independently of anyone else's conception of what was good and proper (which makes him one of the most "modern" of 19th century composers), and if that doesn't resonate with you then there are plenty of other things to listen to.

[vinteuil]

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... much enjoying Sawallisch and the Bavarians.
Next will be Blomstedt and the Leipzigers

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[Maclintick]

I don't, it's a typically English brand of haughty trivialisation applied to something serious and foreign.

Most adverse criticism of Bruckner seems to me to boil down to people complaining that Bruckner doesn't do things the way they feel things ought to be done... Bruckner went his own way, independently of anyone else's conception of what was good and proper (which makes him one of the most "modern" of 19th century composers), and if that doesn't resonate with you then there are plenty of other things to listen to.

In my perversely obtuse way I took Tovey's "witticism" -- advanced by a composer whose early output was "serious and foreign" enough to find favour initially in Germany but not in his homeland -- as a rebuke to those who lacked the patience to listen and let Bruckner's music unfold on its and his own terms. Rather the exact opposite of your reading of the quote.