BaL 20.02.21 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 6

[jayne lee wilson]

I think the Bruckner Finale problem (as opposed to the more general finale problem, which is real enough but also inspired some of the greatest symphonic movements) is that they are the most complex Bruckner movements, as they combine new ideas (and subsidiary motifs) with references to and further developments of themes from earlier movements. They can also be quite fast and relatively compressed creations (1,2,6,7), which can indeed make them a challenge to follow, but (with the exception of the 5th) they are still against a 3-subject sonata background which can offer a few landmarks - so long as you hear them frequently enough to grasp what is going on, which also has the great merit of endearing the patient ear to the various thematic inspirations.
With complex, classically constructed symphonies repeated listening is always the most rewarding kind.

It isn't just an academic exercise if I suggest writing down the musical ideas as you hear them occur in their various forms - i.e., A,B,C, A2 B2 etc….this creates a sort of sitemap of the movement and you begin to see how it fits together. William Carragan has some excellent, detailed examples on the abruckner.com website, complete with timings related to specific recordings.

As you get to know the larger architecture and start to remember the themes, the scaffolding falls away and you can engage with the beautiful Brucknerian building directly again, but with greater involvement and understanding.
So any “musicological analysis” should not be so casually dismissed. It takes many forms, and most of it arises from the perceived need for deeper understanding of great and complex works of art, which may inspire greater affection.

***

The same thing can happen with films or paintings, or an admired landscape - after an initial coup de foudre, whether of indifference, passion or rejection, the longer you look, the more you see, the more it affects you - dwells within.
Love at first sight, whether carnal or aesthetic, is a real phenomenon, but the most rewarding relationships tend to run a little deeper and longer.

[Wolfram]

So any “musicological analysis” should not be so casually dismissed. It takes many forms, and most of it arises from the perceived need for deeper understanding of great and complex works of art, which may inspire greater affection.

I was most certainly not trying to dismiss it. What I was trying to say is that on its own it's not enough; it does not explain everything.

[jayne lee wilson]

I was most certainly not trying to dismiss it. What I was trying to say is that on its own it's not enough; it does not explain everything.

No-one would ever pretend that it does. But the more you know, the more you understand, the deeper your love may grow. Back in the day, I was greatly helped by the simple structural descriptions I found in various sleeve notes, Gramophone pieces and general guides for musiclovers like The Master Musicians.

None of those was especially technical or presupposed any musical training. They drew me closer to Bruckner, never pushed me away. It was the classic trinity of Radio 3, Gramophone and the local library that provided the foundation for my love and understanding of Bruckner and many other composers. I try to share it when I can.

[richardfinegold]

I didn't get to address one issue yesterday in my post, and that was the issue of the "Doom Music" in the Eighth. IIRC, the point of the matter here is that imo Bruckner is not necessarily a Great Symphonist, although he wrote great and wonderful music that gives me and others a lot of pleasure. My point is that AB frequently doesn't develop themes, but tends to repeat them with different instrumental combinations, and then changes a key and frequently produces a startling effect. I cited the Doom Music as an example, where it (to me) just appears to come out of nowhere, not as the logical culmination of forces that have gone before it. jlw, and perhaps others, have disagreed. jlw states that there is a spot in VIII/I that lays the groundwork for the appearance of this striking music.
Having listened to the work for years, if such a moment exists, I haven't detected it. Nonetheless, let us assume that this is, in fact, the case. Compare this coda of the first movement to the first movements of Beethoven Fifth and Brahms 4. Both of those works have emphatic conclusions that are CLEARLY--and obvious even to novice listeners--spawned by the music that has gone before. In fact, the conclusions of both of these movements strike the listener as the only possible conclusion of the momentum of the music.
Bruckner VIII/I, however, strikes me as a moderately dramatic movement that at the very end suddenly ratches up the intensity by a factor of 10. I will use a horror movie analogy. Imagine a movie where the director has alternated scenes of the hero of the movie going about their business unaware of impending danger, with scenes of the malevolent protagonist planning to attack. Tension is created in the minds of the viewers by seeing the juxtaposition. Imagine the same movie where all we see is the hero meandering about their business, and suddenly, out of nowhere, the villain jumps out of a closet with a chainsaw dripping blood and commits mayhem. They both can be dramatically effective, but I prefer the director who builds the suspense.
The movie Lawrence of Arabia was in two parts, and was notorious for the ending of the first part, in which there are long scenes of characters struggling across hot desert sands. Coca Cola paid to have a few frames of 1/64th second inserted into that sequence, to create a huge demand for their product by subliminally inducing thirst in the viewers. If AB has set the table for the Doom Music, I think it is rahter subliminal.
Anyway, back to the day job...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Does the coda of Beethoven 9 1st movt have much to do with the previous material except in so far as it’s a tonic / dominant affair which characterises so much Beethoven ? It’s pretty much a descending chromatic to a and then up on a dominant scale to d with a series of dmin / a maj cadences , a quick excursion into D maj ( ok that echoes the D major tutti of the main theme in the development ) and then a tutti quote of the main theme. I like Bruckner’s codas and if they don’t draw always on other themes that at least gets him off the overly repetitive charge!

[jayne lee wilson]

Does the coda of Beethoven 9 1st movt have much to do with the previous material except in so far as it’s a tonic / dominant affair which characterises so much Beethoven ? It’s pretty much a descending chromatic to a and then up on a dominant scale to d with a series of dmin / a maj cadences , a quick excursion into D maj ( ok that echoes the D major tutti of the main theme in the development ) and then a tutti quote of the main theme. I like Bruckner’s codas and if they don’t draw always on other themes that at least gets him off the overly repetitive charge!

Thinking through them quickly, I can't recall a single Bruckner 1st or last-movement coda that doesn't do exactly that - and in the case of the finales, often all the major themes from the entire symphony as well.

A magnificent earlier example of this occurs at the end of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony, though there it is (merely) the final movement's five themes that are contrapuntally juxtaposed. And truly thrilling it is. (You've made me want to play it now!)
The Bruckner 8th finale coda would be the grandest and greatest of all successors to the Mozart 41 example. And yes - it is absolutely vital that you recognise all the themes as they appear and combine in that final devastating few minutes if you are to arrive at any understanding of the piece.
(If you object that you can't hear this, but still thrill to it, I would suggest that your brain is probably doing the recognitional work for you -subliminally...)

True of the Beethoven 9(i) coda as well of course, in which the ominous groundswell motion is underpinned by the main rhythm of the opening theme quietly in the winds (the main theme of the movement which the development climaxes upon) which then emerges powerfully, combining with the groundswell in a new, climactic-tragic form (emphasising the rhythm again - the driver, the basic energising impulse, of the whole movement) to conclude the final bars.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Thinking through them quickly, I can't recall a single Bruckner 1st or last-movement coda that doesn't do exactly that - and in the case of the finales, often all the major themes from the entire symphony as well.

A magnificent earlier example of this occurs at the end of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony, though there it is (merely) the final movement's five themes that are contrapuntally juxtaposed. And truly thrilling it is. (You've made me want to play it now!)
The Bruckner 8th finale coda would be the grandest and greatest of all successors to the Mozart 41 example. And yes - it is absolutely vital that you recognise all the themes as they appear and combine in that final devastating few minutes if you are to arrive at any understanding of the piece.
(If you object that you can't hear this, but still thrill to it, I would suggest that your brain is probably doing the recognitional work for you -subliminally...)

True of the Beethoven 9(i) coda as well of course, in which the ominous groundswell motion is underpinned by the main rhythm of the opening theme quietly in the winds (the main theme of the movement which the development climaxes upon) which then emerges powerfully, combining with the groundswell in a new, climactic-tragic form (emphasising the three-note rhythm again) to conclude the final bars.

That Beethoven 9 1st movt coda is enormously influential isn’t it ? I guess trying to rip off the Eroica 1st movt coda requires a Great deal more effort . It’s always struck me that just as Wagner wrote terrific act endings - really ratcheting up the tension - so Bruckner was a master of the coda. I always think they are a highlight and not just because an interval / post concert pint beckons . Honest .

[jayne lee wilson]

That Beethoven 9 1st movt coda is enormously influential isn’t it ? I guess trying to rip off the Eroica 1st movt coda requires a Great deal more effort . It’s always struck me that just as Wagner wrote terrific act endings - really ratcheting up the tension - so Bruckner was a master of the coda. I always think they are a highlight and not just because an interval / post concert pint beckons . Honest .

The influence of the LvB 9th upon Bruckner is often overstated, but to hear it at its most explicit, listen to the codas of Bruckner 2 (i) and (iv), where Bruckner makes something very new and original from the example of the Beethoven. Fascinating, because it could still only be by Bruckner. Like all of the greatest composers, he found his own voice very early on.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A magnificent earlier example of this occurs at the end of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony, though there it is (merely) the final movement's five themes that are contrapuntally juxtaposed. And truly thrilling it is. (You've made me want to play it now!)

I know this is off topic, but I’ve always considered that there are really only 4 themes in that Jupiter finale, as two of them always appear together, so are not thematically independent. Also, what might be termed the countersubject of this pair, half of it is virtually identical to one of the other themes. This does not diminish Mozart’s incredible achievement.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Back on Bruckner 6, does anyone know why there’s no first movement in Furtwangler’s recording?

[Ein Heldenleben]

I know this is off topic, but I’ve always considered that there are really only 4 themes in that Jupiter finale, as two of them always appear together, so are not thematically independent. Also, what might be termed the countersubject of this pair, half of it is virtually identical to one of the other themes. This does not diminish Mozart’s incredible achievement.

What about the Meistersinger overture in terms of numbers of combined themes ? 4?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

What about the Meistersinger overture in terms of numbers of combined themes ? 4?

That one puzzles me. Most of Wagner’s Leitmotifs can be harmonised with one another, being written with that in mind. Wagner’s Meistersinger sketches suggest the two much longer themes were composed independently. The short “banner” motif is short and can more easily be adapted in counterpoint with other themes. But the whole thing is remarkable. But perhaps the closing pages of Götterdämmerung surpasses all other contrapuntal miracles?

[Ein Heldenleben]

That one puzzles me. Most of Wagner’s Leitmotifs can be harmonised with one another, being written with that in mind. Wagner’s Meistersinger sketches suggest the two much longer themes were composed independently. The short “banner” motif is short and can more easily be adapted in counterpoint with other themes. But the whole thing is remarkable. But perhaps the closing pages of Götterdämmerung surpasses all other contrapuntal miracles?

Certainly in terms of its emotional impact but can I put in a word for J.S. Bach ?

[Goon525]

Gosh this thread has moved on a lot since earlier today. Just wanted to report that I did have a listen to Andreae in the slow movement of 6. To my shame his is not a name that meant anything to me, and he was clearly a conductor of real talent. But, although clearly the transfer has been sensitively done, and is certainly listenable, I would still prefer to listen to something better recorded, and it’s not as if we’re short of good modern versions. But, as Jayne mentioned, that Viennese oboe is something else, rather literally something from another millennium.

I’m afraid though - and I am a real Bruckner fan - that I do think he has a finale problem, simply that the movements just aren’t as good as what precedes them. (I crossed swords with Jayne about 4 a while ago on this issue.) I have listened to enough Bruckner to have a decent understanding of the three subject sonata form, but it just doesn’t seem to work (in general) as well in the finales as elsewhere.

[jayne lee wilson]

Gosh this thread has moved on a lot since earlier today. Just wanted to report that I did have a listen to Andreae in the slow movement of 6. To my shame his is not a name that meant anything to me, and he was clearly a conductor of real talent. But, although clearly the transfer has been sensitively done, and is certainly listenable, I would still prefer to listen to something better recorded, and it’s not as if we’re short of good modern versions. But, as Jayne mentioned, that Viennese oboe is something else, rather literally something from another millennium.

I’m afraid though - and I am a real Bruckner fan - that I do think he has a finale problem, simply that the movements just aren’t as good as what precedes them. (I crossed swords with Jayne about 4 a while ago on this issue.) I have listened to enough Bruckner to have a decent understanding of the three subject sonata form, but it just doesn’t seem to work (in general) as well in the finales as elsewhere.

But surely you would see the 5th's finale as sui generis? A creation of such awesome Apollonian majesty and formal perfection as to silence criticism, leaving us all gazing upon the marvel...

It is tricky to generalise about the Bruckner finales, given how distinct they all are in thematic character and how they progress. I can see why a given listener might have trouble following those of 4 or 6, given the shape-shifting themes and the sheer density of musical event; or the 8th, on account of its sheer scale.
But the 7th? Do many listeners here really have difficulty with that one, or find it formally lacking in some way? Again, it seems to me one of his most perfectly integrated structures. Evolving so naturally, it seems to have written itself. (I love the reminiscence of the Haydn Lamentatione in the 2nd theme here).