BaL 20.02.21 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 6

[Ein Heldenleben]

Not sure about "appreciable at first hearing", I can think of quite a number of works that made no impression on first hearing but that I have later grown to love. Perhaps I'm a slow learner?

I think it’s the listener that changes not the piece...

[vinteuil]

Didn’t Tovey say that Bruckner had his moments, but oh, those half hours in between?

... I thought the quip was customarily attributed to Rossini, asked his opinion of Wagner - « Quelques beaux moments, mais de fichus quarts d’heure »

[ “O!” rief Rossini aus, “in dieser Beziehung bin ich ganz Ihrer Meinung und Niemandist entferner davon, die Origianlität des Schöpfers des Lohengrin anzuzweifeln, als ich; nur daß es uns der Componist mitunter recht schwer macht, das Schöne, was wir ihm verdanken, in dem Chaos von Tönen, das seine Opern enthalten, aufzufinden. Sie werden es selbst schon erfahren haben: Mr. Wagner a de beaux moments, mais de mauvais quart d’heures! Dennoch bin ich seiner bisherigen Laufbahn mit gespanntem Interesse gefolgt.” Italienische Tondichter von Palestrina bis auf die Gegenwart (1876).]

[Bryn]

... I thought the quip was customarily attributed to Rossini, asked his opinion of Wagner - « Quelques beaux moments, mais de fichus quarts d’heure »

Indeed. Neither Tovey nor Bruckner were involved.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Indeed. Neither Tovey nor Bruckner were involved.

I think Rossini and Wagner met and each treated one other quite respectfully.

[Wolfram]

This is absolutely fascinating stuff on this thread, well beyond my knowledge and ability to analyse musical structures as complex as a Bruckner symphony. But it seems to me that given the undoubted ingenuity and mastery of formal design undertaken on a huge scale by Bruckner in his symphonies - and brilliantly elucidated for us here on this thread - despite all of this if the pieces, irrespective of their cleverness of design, are not constructed out of engaging thematic material, ie good tunes, then they are no more than an academic exercise for the cognoscenti. I think Bruckner's 7th, 8th, 9th and bits of the 4th and 5th symphonies absolutey are constructed from thematic material of the highest class; but, at the risk of those rotten eggs and tomatoes again, I am not so sure about the others.

You can write a symphonic movement constructed exactly as Schubert does in the first movement of his Unfinished Symphony, but if you don't fill it with engaging thematic material then nobody is going to listen to it. It will be the 'Unheard' rather than the 'Unfinished' Symphony.

In addition the problem Bruckner has I think, along with many composers writing in the second half of the 19th century, is that they don't know what to do with the final movement of a symphony. The traditional darkness into light traversal of the late Classical early Romantic symphony was becoming redundant as the century progressed (eg the last movement of Brahms' 2nd piano concerto - a symphony in everything but name) and they are waiting for Brahms (no. 4) and Tchaikovsky (no. 6) to end a symphony in tragedy, and lead us into the new century and a new world. In this context you could almost argue that Bruckner by not completing the last movement of the 9th Symphony provided the, unintentional, best outcome for the work.

[Ein Heldenleben]

This is absolutely fascinating stuff on this thread, well beyond my knowledge and ability to analyse musical structures as complex as a Bruckner symphony. But it seems to me that given the undoubted ingenuity and mastery of formal design undertaken on a huge scale by Bruckner in his symphonies - and brilliantly elucidated for us here on this thread - despite all of this if the pieces, irrespective of their cleverness of design, are not constructed out of engaging thematic material, ie good tunes, then they are no more than an academic exercise for the cognoscenti. I think Bruckner's 7th, 8th, 9th and bits of the 4th and 5th symphonies absolutey are constructed from thematic material of the highest class; but, at the risk of those rotten eggs and tomatoes again, I am not so sure about the others.

You can write a symphonic movement constructed exactly as Schubert does in the first movement of his Unfinished Symphony, but if you don't fill it with engaging thematic material then nobody is going to listen to it. It will be the 'Unheard' rather than the 'Unfinished' Symphony.

In addition the problem Bruckner has I think, along with many composers writing in the second half of the 19th century, is that they don't know what to do with the final movement of a symphony. The traditional darkness into light traversal of the late Classical early Romantic symphony was becoming redundant as the century progressed (eg the last movement of Brahms' 2nd piano concerto - a symphony in everything but name) and they are waiting for Brahms (no. 4) and Tchaikovsky (no. 6) to end a symphony in tragedy, and lead us into the new century and a new world. In this context you could almost argue that Bruckner by not completing the last movement of the 9th Symphony provided the, unintentional, best outcome for the work.

Yes but what is a “good tune “ ? One that you can remember , one that you can sing or hum ? One that you can subject to complex motivic development , repeat in retrograde inversion, augmentation , diminution, combine in counterpoint with the second subject , bring to an overwhelming conclusion in the major ?
Funnily enough as per your thesis the last movt of Bruckner 6 doesn’t quite work for me ...

[mikealdren]

I think it’s the listener that changes not the piece...

There's definitely some truth in that but I think some pieces are very "different from what we are used to" and reveal their charms as you get to know them, their beauty is more than skin deep. Of course, now I'm much older, I am much more familiar with a wide variety of styles and sadly there are far fewer masterpieces that I haven't heard. Those heady student days of hearing so many great works for the first time are in the dim and distant past.

[Wolfram]

Yes but what is a “good tune “ ? One that you can remember , one that you can sing or hum ? One that you can subject to complex motivic development , repeat in retrograde inversion, augmentation , diminution, combine in counterpoint with the second subject , bring to an overwhelming conclusion in the major ?

Oh! it's all of these. It can be two notes long or 20 notes long: vertical or horizontal. But it can also be 'good' or 'bad'; engaging or forgetable; hackneyed or original. It certainly is one that you can hum (be it by Mozart or Schoenberg, Ligeti or Stockhausen), because it remains with you by virtue of it being 'good'. If it was possible to write a 'good tune' from a knowledge of the principles of thematic construction, or write a piece of music based on a sound understanding of structural anaysis, then we could all be a Bach, Mozart or Wagner. Sadly, or happily, that not is not the case, and the answer to your question remains elusive.

[Wolfram]

Funnily enough as per your thesis the last movt of Bruckner 6 doesn’t quite work for me ...

It doesn't work for me either. But I like Tom Service, and if he recommends anyone other than Klemperer, Karajan or Barenboim, then no doubt I will be buying it come Saturday afternoon.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It doesn't work for me either. But I like Tom Service, and if he recommends anyone other than Klemperer, Karajan or Barenboim, then no doubt I will be buying it come Saturday afternoon.

I’m fond of the Haitink . I can’t understand why the Adagio isn’t more popular.....one of the great 19th century slow movements..

[Ein Heldenleben]

There's definitely some truth in that but I think some pieces are very "different from what we are used to" and reveal their charms as you get to know them, their beauty is more than skin deep. Of course, now I'm much older, I am much more familiar with a wide variety of styles and sadly there are far fewer masterpieces that I haven't heard. Those heady student days of hearing so many great works for the first time are in the dim and distant past.

Contrary to popular prejudice I think your tastes broaden as you get older which is good news for all of us...,

[Richard Barrett]

Contrary to popular prejudice I think your tastes broaden as you get older which is good news for all of us...,

Agreed 100%. There's always room to (re)discover new things.

Wolfram, there's a whole thread about the "finale problem" (not specifically about Bruckner, I had Shostakovich down as the prime suspect!), maybe take a look at that if you're interested.

[mikealdren]

Contrary to popular prejudice I think your tastes broaden as you get older which is good news for all of us...,

Absolutely and there's a lot of music out there, I guess that's the crux of this forum....

[Ein Heldenleben]

Absolutely and there's a lot of music out there, I guess that's the crux of this forum....

Yes indeed that and recycling some of my deeply ingrained musical prejudices ...seriously though there is now a long list of pieces and performers I wouldn’t have listened to without the recommendation of people on this forum. For which much thanks....

[Wolfram]

Wolfram, there's a whole thread about the "finale problem" (not specifically about Bruckner, I had Shostakovich down as the prime suspect!), maybe take a look at that if you're interested.

Thank you. I will.