BaL 9.01.21 - Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto no. 3 in D minor

[BBMmk2]

I’ll stick to the ones I have, I think.

[richardfinegold]

Well, I have to say that having now listened twice to the Hough/Dallas version, I’m definitely inclined to that view. I found a lot of the stylistic approach to be inappropriate to how I hear this piece, indeed the word that occurred to me was “trivialising”. Too much of the rubato seemed fussy to me, merely decorative. I didn’t get at all any of the structural overview which seemed to be the main thing that drew DON to the performance.

I’ll be passing on any further listening to this “BaL winner” (with some sadness that there are listeners out there who might think that this is the best way to play the piece)

I didn’t hear the recordings that the composer made for many years after I had collected a few others, and yes, they were revelatory. There are so many passages, particularly in this Concerto, that in other hands sound mindlessly repetitious, , that suddenly made sense. A performer needs to be inside the rhetoric of the composer to make it work.

[Nick Armstrong]

I didn’t hear the recordings that the composer made for many years after I had collected a few others, and yes, they were revelatory. There are so many passages, particularly in this Concerto, that in other hands sound mindlessly repetitious, that suddenly made sense. A performer needs to be inside the rhetoric of the composer to make it work.

Yes, I couldn’t agree more - likewise with many other pianists as mentioned in my posts up-thread.

The BAL-recommended version had pushes and pulls which, while not repetitious, just didn’t make sense to me - they just sounded ‘mannered’, even ‘camp’....

[ostuni]

I used this BaL as an impetus to get to know this piece properly, downloaded the score from IMSLP, and listened to quite a few, mostly recent, versions on Spotify/Qobuz. I was glad that DON appreciated the Kocsis recording: he's one of my favourite pianists and, provided you're not wedded to the 'six feet two inches of Russian gloom' view of Rachmaninov, this is a superb version. Does anyone do the quicksilver capriciousness aspect of the piece better than Kocsis?

Of the more recent versions I listened to (Giltburg, Andsnes, Trifonov, Trpceski, Sudbin), it was Andsnes which stood out for me - not least for the superbly richly phrased LSO/Pappano, and an excellent recorded balance. Good, characterful, flexible playing from Andsnes.

And then I was glancing through this month's Gramophone interview with Howard Shelley, and noticed his almost throwaway mention of a Spanish magazine's verdict on his Rach 3: best of the lot! I've been guilty of rather ignoring him as a pianist (admiring from afar, rather than actually listening to, his huge contribution to Hyperion's Romantic Concerto series). So I started listening to his Rach 3 - and, yes, it's superb! All the delicacy, when needed, and masses of power, where appropriate. Bryden Thomson's RSNO isn’t quite as rich as Pappano's LSO, but overall, and at least for how I'm feeling this week, this is the version that appeals most to me.

Anorak corner: Shelley, like Kocsis, plays the shorter cadenza. None of my listed versions take any of the cuts.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I used this BaL as an impetus to get to know this piece properly, downloaded the score from IMSLP, and listened to quite a few, mostly recent, versions on Spotify/Qobuz. I was glad that DON appreciated the Kocsis recording: he's one of my favourite pianists and, provided you're not wedded to the 'six feet two inches of Russian gloom' view of Rachmaninov, this is a superb version. Does anyone do the quicksilver capriciousness aspect of the piece better than Kocsis?

Of the more recent versions I listened to (Giltburg, Andsnes, Trifonov, Trpceski, Sudbin), it was Andsnes which stood out for me - not least for the superbly richly phrased LSO/Pappano, and an excellent recorded balance. Good, characterful, flexible playing from Andsnes.

And then I was glancing through this month's Gramophone interview with Howard Shelley, and noticed his almost throwaway mention of a Spanish magazine's verdict on his Rach 3: best of the lot! I've been guilty of rather ignoring him as a pianist (admiring from afar, rather than actually listening to, his huge contribution to Hyperion's Romantic Concerto series). So I started listening to his Rach 3 - and, yes, it's superb! All the delicacy, when needed, and masses of power, where appropriate. Bryden Thomson's RSNO isn’t quite as rich as Pappano's LSO, but overall, and at least for how I'm feeling this week, this is the version that appeals most to me.

Anorak corner: Shelley, like Kocsis, plays the shorter cadenza. None of my listed versions take any of the cuts.

Howard is a very underrated pianist . His cd of the Rachmaninov transcriptions is stunning. Those pieces pose endless technical and musical challenges and he just seems to shrug them off . Desert Island disc for me...

[Nick Armstrong]

I used this BaL as an impetus to get to know this piece properly, downloaded the score from IMSLP, and listened to quite a few, mostly recent, versions on Spotify/Qobuz. I was glad that DON appreciated the Kocsis recording: he's one of my favourite pianists and, provided you're not wedded to the 'six feet two inches of Russian gloom' view of Rachmaninov, this is a superb version. Does anyone do the quicksilver capriciousness aspect of the piece better than Kocsis?

Of the more recent versions I listened to (Giltburg, Andsnes, Trifonov, Trpceski, Sudbin), it was Andsnes which stood out for me - not least for the superbly richly phrased LSO/Pappano, and an excellent recorded balance. Good, characterful, flexible playing from Andsnes.

And then I was glancing through this month's Gramophone interview with Howard Shelley, and noticed his almost throwaway mention of a Spanish magazine's verdict on his Rach 3: best of the lot! I've been guilty of rather ignoring him as a pianist (admiring from afar, rather than actually listening to, his huge contribution to Hyperion's Romantic Concerto series). So I started listening to his Rach 3 - and, yes, it's superb! All the delicacy, when needed, and masses of power, where appropriate. Bryden Thomson's RSNO isn’t quite as rich as Pappano's LSO, but overall, and at least for how I'm feeling this week, this is the version that appeals most to me.

Anorak corner: Shelley, like Kocsis, plays the shorter cadenza. None of my listed versions take any of the cuts.

Very interesting ostuni! Some further listening ideas there, thanks

Yes, the Kocsis is excellent, on one initial listening

(I note you ignored the Hough, wisely I think )

Anorak confessional: I must say I’ve failed to work out or even notice the difference between the available cadenzas. Perhaps all the versions I know play the long one? (I did notice that Hough played a cadenza with which I’m not familiar. I ought to find out more about this)

[Ein Heldenleben]

Very interesting ostuni! Some further listening ideas there, thanks

Yes, the Kocsis is excellent, on one initial listening

(I note you ignored the Hough, wisely I think )

Anorak confessional: I must say I’ve failed to work out or even notice the difference between the available cadenzas. Perhaps all the versions I know play the long one? (I did notice that Hough played a cadenza with which I’m not familiar. I ought to find out more about this)

As far as I know there are just two versions of the cadenza one is massively chordal ( constant 8 finger chords ) and very demanding . The other is much more fleet of foot ( or hand) and scherzando in quality . In fact it’s marked scherzando and it’s much easier to play. Tamas Vasary plays the former (superbly ) Martha Argerich the latter (also very well.) on the recordings I have .
The concerto has quite a few ossia passages . The final movement has a semi cadenza in it with an option on an ossia leggiero semi Demi quaver sequence that I don’t know how pianists get their fingers round .The ossia is more difficult than the original. The original is hard ; the ossia is just ridiculous.,

[Nick Armstrong]

As far as I know there are just two versions of the cadenza one is massively chordal ( constant 8 finger chords ) and very demanding . The other is much more fleet of foot ( or hand) and scherzando in quality . In fact it’s marked scherzando and it’s much easier to play. Tamas Vasary plays the former (superbly ) Martha Argerich the latter (also very well.) on the recordings I have .
The concerto has quite a few ossia passages . The final movement has a semi cadenza in it with an option on an ossia leggiero semi Demi quaver sequence that I don’t know how pianists get their fingers round .The ossia is more difficult than the original. The original is hard ; the ossia is just ridiculous.,

V helpful, thanks!

Just relistening to the Kocsis - he plays the scherzando cadenza I think (in keeping with the tone of his performance), like Hough. I think all other versions I know (including the two you mention) feature the heavier-duty one

[gurnemanz]

Yes, the Kocsis is excellent, on one initial listening

I mentioned somewhere above that Kocsis is my favourite of the three I have on CD. He was something of a youthful prodigy and I have fond memories of seeing him in a Mozart Concerto with the Gewandhaus in 1973. He was 21 and looked much younger and I was only a couple of years older. I also have his excellent 8CD Bartok solo piano set. I was sad and taken aback when he died at only 64 several years ago.

[ostuni]

Yes, a wonderful musician. I was very sorry not to have got to meet him; about a year before he died, I was doing a small concert tour of Hungary with a group. It was being covered by one of the Hungarian TV stations: for some reason, they wanted to film us at a rehearsal of the Hungarian National Orchestra at Budapest's MUPA (there was no obvious connection: the orchestra was rehearsing Bluebeard's Castle, while we were a small HIP group touring a Haydn programme). Kocsis was due to be conducting, but on the morning we were there, a phone call came through to say that he'd been taken ill, and his assistant took over the rehearsal.

I remember a Hungarian musicologist acquaintance being of the firm opinion that, of those three pianists born in the early 50s (Ranki, Kocsis, Schiff), Kocsis was by far the greatest musician.

[CallMePaul]

Could have been my copy...

I bought it at St Gemma's Hospice shop on Harrogate Road. Like most charity shops it rarely has a decent range of classical CDs (or vinyl LPs)

[Nick Armstrong]

Yes, a wonderful musician. I was very sorry not to have got to meet him; about a year before he died, I was doing a small concert tour of Hungary with a group. It was being covered by one of the Hungarian TV stations: for some reason, they wanted to film us at a rehearsal of the Hungarian National Orchestra at Budapest's MUPA (there was no obvious connection: the orchestra was rehearsing Bluebeard's Castle, while we were a small HIP group touring a Haydn programme). Kocsis was due to be conducting, but on the morning we were there, a phone call came through to say that he'd been taken ill, and his assistant took over the rehearsal.

I remember a Hungarian musicologist acquaintance being of the firm opinion that, of those three pianists born in the early 50s (Ranki, Kocsis, Schiff), Kocsis was by far the greatest musician.

Interesting!

Alas having listened a couple of times, I feel his & de Waart’s account of the Rachmaninov 3rd goes too far in the ‘scherzando’ direction - the initial sense of thrill gives way to a feeling that they’re selling the piece short.

After a week of ‘immersion’ in various readings of the concerto, I’ve gone back to that YouTube video I posted... I have to say I think that (almost miraculously) the young pianist Malofeev - 17 at the time, I understand, not 18 as I said - plus the young musicians of the orchestra deliver a performance which is right up there with the best I know.

Can anyone decipher the conductor’s name from the opening announcement in Russian?

[TalktoAudience]

Interesting!

Alas having listened a couple of times, I feel his & de Waart’s account of the Rachmaninov 3rd goes too far in the ‘scherzando’ direction - the initial sense of thrill gives way to a feeling that they’re selling the piece short.

After a week of ‘immersion’ in various readings of the concerto, I’ve gone back to that YouTube video I posted... I have to say I think that (almost miraculously) the young pianist Malofeev - 17 at the time, I understand, not 18 as I said - plus the young musicians of the orchestra deliver a performance which is right up there with the best I know.

Can anyone decipher the conductor’s name from the opening announcement in Russian?

Dimitris Botinis. Immaculately turned out too.

https://www.mariinsky.ru/en/company/conductors/dimitris_botinis/

[Nick Armstrong]

Dimitris Botinis. Immaculately turned out too.

https://www.mariinsky.ru/en/company/...itris_botinis/

Many thanks

[Darloboy]

Very interesting ostuni! Some further listening ideas there, thanks

Yes, the Kocsis is excellent, on one initial listening

(I note you ignored the Hough, wisely I think )

Anorak confessional: I must say I’ve failed to work out or even notice the difference between the available cadenzas. Perhaps all the versions I know play the long one? (I did notice that Hough played a cadenza with which I’m not familiar. I ought to find out more about this)

When David Fanning covered this piece back in 98, he made Argerich/Chailly his first choice with Kissin/Ozawa his choice for the alternative 1st movement cadenza - so you could try comparing those 2 recordings. I must confess I haven't.