BaL 19.12.20 - Mahler Symphony no. 1

[Bryn]

I have the recording in the big Bruno Walter box and played it on Saturday evening. Fully endorse your comments and my only grumble (not mentioned by anyone?) is that Walter ignores the repeats in the first two movements though this might bother others less than it does me.

Were the omissions possibly down to the disc-cutting technology of the time, and the desire to retain dynamic range?

As to Goon525's comment "these were early days for Mahler performances", not for Walter, they weren't.

[Goon525]

But they were pretty early for recorded Mahler. I suspect that LP playing times may have played a part. The awkwardly long finale needed either a side to itself, or in combination with the slow movement was uncomfortably long for LP, and would have restricted the (crucial) dynamics.

[cloughie]

I have the recording in the big Bruno Walter box and played it on Saturday evening. Fully endorse your comments and my only grumble (not mentioned by anyone?) is that Walter ignores the repeats in the first two movements though this might bother others less than it does me.

Are there omissions on both the NYPO and ColSO recordings, Pet?

Goon525 - what you say about CBS is true for many of their CBS Classics LP - the sound on CD is more than often considerably improved.

[Petrushka]

Were the omissions possibly down to the disc-cutting technology of the time, and the desire to retain dynamic range?

I did wonder if that was the case and if Walter did the same in live performance. As it happens, we have a 1955 live BBCSO performance on CD (in which our old and late friend Hornspieler was playing) and as I have this CD I'll check it out as I can't recall what Walter does.

That said, it would technically be feasible to indulge in some jiggery-pokery and restore the repeats but perhaps ethical considerations should prevail.

[Petrushka]

Are there omissions on both the NYPO and ColSO recordings, Pet?

Goon525 - what you say about CBS is true for many of their CBS Classics LP - the sound on CD is more than often considerably improved.

Yes, I think so. Will just check out the live 1955 recording and if Walter does it in live performance as well when there would be no technical considerations applicable then that must be the way he wanted it.

Later edit: Walter does indeed omit the marked repeats in his 1955 live BBCSO performance so that's that as far as I'm concerned. Did Gillian Moore mention this in her survey? It's odd that. for whatever reason, Walter does it but at least we can be sure that it had nothing to do with side length or dynamic range.

[Nick Armstrong]

I know that the restraints on time make it virtually impossible, but I would have liked to have heard more actual comparisons of the same bit rather than just the 'here's conductor 1 at the start and conductor 2 in the next bit and conductor 3 somewhere else' approach.

I completely agree with this, BaL is at its most enlightening on the rare occasions this happens.*

This Mahler 1 survey was ok as far as it went, not least as a reminder of what a brilliant performance/recording the Walter is. The Linttu caught my ear (and was the only one featured I haven’t heard) and I’ll investigate on Qobuz.

*To be fair to GM, we did get this with the “klezmer” music of the slow movement in which she contrasted Bernstein, Jansons and Kubelik. That said, I disagreed with her dismissal of Kubelik on the grounds of crudeness in that music. I think it sounds great - plus she’d previously highlighted that Kubelik’s roots were geographically close to Mahler’s and he presumably had a good idea how local ‘folk’ music sounded...

[visualnickmos]

I completely agree with this, BaL is at its most enlightening on the rare occasions this happens.*

This Mahler 1 survey was ok as far as it went, not least as a reminder of what a brilliant performance/recording the Walter is. The Linttu caught my ear (and was the only one featured I haven’t heard) and I’ll investigate on Qobuz.

*To be fair to GM, we did get this with the “klezmer” music of the slow movement in which she contrasted Bernstein, Jansons and Kubelik. That said, I disagreed with her dismissal of Kubelik on the grounds of crudeness in that music. I think it sounds great - plus she’d previously highlighted that Kubelik’s roots were geographically close to Mahler’s and he presumably had a good idea how local ‘folk’ music sounded...

Exactly. I was a little perplexed by that remark.
I was (surprisingly for me) very taken with Jansons. Not because it's Jansons, per se, but Jansons 'doing' Mahler. I liked his almost 'no fuss' approach, with out losing any of the imbued characteristics of the music. Think I might add this on my wishlist.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I completely agree with this, BaL is at its most enlightening on the rare occasions this happens.*

This Mahler 1 survey was ok as far as it went, not least as a reminder of what a brilliant performance/recording the Walter is. The Linttu caught my ear (and was the only one featured I haven’t heard) and I’ll investigate on Qobuz.

*To be fair to GM, we did get this with the “klezmer” music of the slow movement in which she contrasted Bernstein, Jansons and Kubelik. That said, I disagreed with her dismissal of Kubelik on the grounds of crudeness in that music. I think it sounds great - plus she’d previously highlighted that Kubelik’s roots were geographically close to Mahler’s and he presumably had a good idea how local ‘folk’ music sounded...

Exactly right . Klezmer music is not supposed to sound like Jack Brymer and the Amadeus - good though that is . It’s supposed to be crude raw reedy and passionate ! There’s some rehearsal footage of Mark Elder trying to get that raw sound out of the winds albeit in a different Mahler symphony ( can’t remember which );

[Pulcinella]

I completely agree with this, BaL is at its most enlightening on the rare occasions this happens.*

This Mahler 1 survey was ok as far as it went, not least as a reminder of what a brilliant performance/recording the Walter is. The Linttu caught my ear (and was the only one featured I haven’t heard) and I’ll investigate on Qobuz.

*To be fair to GM, we did get this with the “klezmer” music of the slow movement in which she contrasted Bernstein, Jansons and Kubelik. That said, I disagreed with her dismissal of Kubelik on the grounds of crudeness in that music. I think it sounds great - plus she’d previously highlighted that Kubelik’s roots were geographically close to Mahler’s and he presumably had a good idea how local ‘folk’ music sounded...

You're right, and that's partly why I found it so annoying not to have other comparisons.
When we get a second/subsequent excerpt in the way it's now normally done, we just have to assume that that conductor cuts the mustard as least as well in the first/previous excerpt, or presumably they would have got the chop at that point!
But we're rarely told explicitly that the second conductor is equally impressive in their stab at the previous bit, or the first conductor is just as good in this bit!

[Alison]

For more Mahler 1 comparisons

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Dec/Mahler-sy1-survey-LD.pdf

[cloughie]

For Mahler 1 comparisons

http://www.musicweb-international.co...-survey-LD.pdf

A fascinating sutvey, Alison. Thanks

[verismissimo]

A fascinating sutvey, Alison. Thanks

Yes, fascinating.

I particularly was caught by his dislike of so many of the recordings by famous conductors who entered the fray since the millennium: Norrington, Nott, Gergiev, Dudamel, Vanska - who all scored under 5 out of ten.

The ones he most appreciated from that period were Roth and Nezet-Seguin, both scoring 9.5.

[Barbirollians]

A bit dense - the late Mr Duggan’s 2006 survey a much more digestible piece of work.

[Bryn]

Yes, fascinating.

I particularly was caught by his dislike of so many of the recordings by famous conductors who entered the fray since the millennium: Norrington, Nott, Gergiev, Dudamel, Vanska - who all scored under 5 out of ten.

The ones he most appreciated from that period were Roth and Nezet-Seguin, both scoring 9.5.

I was a little concerned by his antagonism towards the new critical edition of the Symphony's forerunner, the Symphonic Poem in Two Parts, 'Titan'. His effective dismissal of it as a bit of pick and mix cludge was rather lacking in detail of argument. I must seek out further information on this issue. I have not yet got to his appraisal of the Norrington. I certainly have my own misgivings regarding the insertion of Blumine into the developed work with four movements of the symphony having been reorchestrated and somewhat recomposed. The Roth is certainly my favourite among recentish releases. Also, though not a commercial release and only available in fairly heavily data-compressed audio via Youtube, he might have at least mentioned the recording of the concert performance of the 3 surviving movements of the Budapest score with the other 2 substituted from the Hamburg. Though basically a performance by a student orchestra, it is all that can be heard of the Budapest stage of the work's progress. Otherwise, a very useful survey, I concur.

[richardfinegold]

A fascinating sutvey, Alison. Thanks

Absolutely. I have just spent the last hour reading it. Fascinating