BaL 7.11.20 - Beethoven: Piano Sonata No 29 in B flat, Op 106 ‘Hammerklavier’

[rauschwerk]

The Urtext has no pedal markings other than tutte le corde at bar 27 ( like the Liszt mentioned by Pulcinella) - the opening bars having been marked una corde ( though it’s usually two on a modern piano I think ) The first three second inversion f# minor chords at bar 27 and low f# minor are marked staccato which implies no pedal as sustained pedalling masks the staccato - Maybe . At least that’s my theory but does any one play it staccato?

Rosen (Sony) plays it exactly as written, with no hint of pedal. Pollini (1977) pedals through all the rests, as do Lewis, Brendel (1995) and Kempff (1951). What I like about Brautigam's playing is that he finds a halfway house. The chords are detached, but only just.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Either you have a fantastic memory or you have had an Adagio fest - either way thanks ! Any hint of staccato in any of them or simple detachment? It’s so tempting to over pedal here as it is in the lovely d major cross hands section

[rauschwerk]

Either you have a fantastic memory or you have had an Adagio fest - either way thanks ! Any hint of staccato in any of them or simple detachment? It’s so tempting to over pedal here as it is in the lovely d major cross hands section

I remember details of the Rosen recording pretty well as it was the first one I bought. As for the others, I didn't listen to them all in full - I thought that might be too much of a good thing! Legato pedalling in this passage seems to be the norm.

[shadybarkis]

What think you of Malcolm Binns account on a George Haschka or even Peter Serkin on a Conrad Graf of 1824/5 unauthenticated? Tinny or tintinnambulatory?

[Ein Heldenleben]

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I remember details of the Rosen recording pretty well as it was the first one I bought. As for the others, I didn't listen to them all in full - I thought that might be too much of a good thing! Legato pedalling in this passage seems to be the norm.

Had time to do some listening. Rosen, Schnabel, Brendel, Vogel, Levitt , Roberts , Kempff. You are absolutely right - Legato pedalling the norm though Brendel starts Bar 27 as written - detached chords and then the pedal comes in . At one point you can even hear the damper action - maybe too closely miked or just not quick enough on the clutch? Roberts starts detached and no pedal at bar 27 and then seems to pedal the first beat in the bar thereafter - cant quite work it out. Rosen as you say scrupulously obeys the markings giving almost a staccato feel which gives this F sharp minor section a drunken lurchy waltz feel . I like it . Tovey though says this must be avoided by not accenting the F sharp bass if I interpret him correctly - whatever. I dont envy the reviewer - there's so much masterly playing - some of the chord voicing is miraculous. Maybe Schnabel wins the palm...

[Maclintick]

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Had time to do some listening. Rosen, Schnabel, Brendel, Vogel, Levitt , Roberts , Kempff. You are absolutely right - Legato pedalling the norm though Brendel starts Bar 27 as written - detached chords and then the pedal comes in . At one point you can even hear the damper action - maybe too closely miked or just not quick enough on the clutch? Roberts starts detached and no pedal at bar 27 and then seems to pedal the first beat in the bar thereafter - cant quite work it out. Rosen as you say scrupulously obeys the markings giving almost a staccato feel which gives this F sharp section a drunken lurchy waltz feel . I like it . Tovey though says this must be avoided by not accenting the F sharp bass if I interpret him correctly - whatever. I dont envy the reviewer - there's so much masterly playing - some of the chord voicing is miraculous. Maybe Schnabel wins the palm...

Goode starts the Tutte le corde passage from bar 27 detached, almost staccato, & then pedals through the succeeding bars à la Brendel & Roberts. Annie Fischer legato pedals from bar 27 onwards, & fine as both are, neither achieves the extraordinarily inward & neurotic feeling achieved by Rosen's scrupulous adherence to the Urtext markings, throwing into greater relief the reappearance of the sustain pedal in Bar 44 -- the spell broken. Must check out Brautigam...& revisit Schnabel, of course...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Goode starts the Tutte le corde passage from bar 27 detached, almost staccato, & then pedals through the succeeding bars à la Brendel & Roberts. Annie Fischer legato pedals from bar 27 onwards, & fine as both are, neither achieves the extraordinarily inward & neurotic feeling achieved by Rosen's scrupulous adherence to the Urtext markings, throwing into greater relief the re-appearance of the sustain pedal in Bar 44 -- the spell broken. Must check out Brautigam...& revisit Schnabel, of course...

Thanks -yes neurotic is a good description . These are fast becoming the most examined few bars in recorded piano history . Didn’t have time to listen to much of the Brautigam but first thoughts were...hold on he’s using a lot of pedal . Then I realised it was a (over? ) reverberant acoustic. Helpfully the performance is on Spotify...

[Bryn]

I remember details of the Rosen recording pretty well as it was the first one I bought. As for the others, I didn't listen to them all in full - I thought that might be too much of a good thing! Legato pedalling in this passage seems to be the norm.

Interestingly enough, in his comprehensive notes for the original LP release of the Binns survey, Clive Bennett, having bemoaned the lack of any contemporary review of Op. 106, refers to the brilliance of the exegesis of the difficulties of Op. 106 for listeners found in Rosen's analysis of this sonata in 'The Classical Style' (PP. 407 - 434 in the 1972 revised edition), and further, to Solomon's 'Beethoven' for his noting of Beethoven's isolation at the time of composition (page 230 of the 1978 edition).

Oh, and again regarding the Binns Op. 106, Adrian Woodhouse, in the New Standard of 21st August 1981 had this to say, "And hearing the Hammerklavier on an 1825 Viennese fortepiano ... that is all ice and fire is like finding the work afresh".

[rauschwerk]

As I said above, I didn't expect to enjoy an account on a Graf copy but I did.

[shadybarkis]

Or the classic Gilels?

Or the even more classic Solomon.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I see on Spotify there’s even a Hammerklavier Gilels Vs. Richter Album inviting you to compare the two versions! When Gilels first received adulation in the West on a cultural exchange didn’t he say “if you think I’m good wait till you hear Richter” ?

[Bryn]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned so far in this thread is that, unique among his piano sonatas, Beethoven provided his own metronome markings for Op. 106. 1. Allegro, minim=138; 2. Scherzo: Assai vivace, dotted minim=80; 3. Adagio sostenuto, quaver=92, 4. Largo - Allegro risoluto, crotchet=144. While these may aeem way too fast for a modern grand, on an 1820s instrument of Viennese action they are acheivable to good effect.

See https://notat.io/viewtopic.php?t=538 for further discussion.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned so far in this thread is that, unique among his piano sonatas, Beethoven provided his own metronome markings for Op. 106. 1. Allegro, minim=138; 2. Scherzo: Assai vivace, dotted minim=80; 3. Adagio sostenuto, quaver=92, 4. Largo - Allegro risoluto, crotchet=144. While these may aeem way too fast for a modern grand, on an 1820s instrument of Viennese action they are acheivable to good effect.

See https://notat.io/viewtopic.php?t=538 for further discussion.

Bryn - that’s a whole new thread in itself ! I remember an entire BBC feature on Beethoven metronomes which went into parallax errors , mechanism distortions partly in an attempt to show that they weren’t realistically achievable . I think the feeling is that as you say on lighter touch pianos they are..

PS thanks for the link - very interesting - in which one commenter tells us that Sokolov plays the F sharp minor sections staccato!

[Bryn]

Bryn - that’s a whole new thread in itself ! I remember an entire BBC feature on Beethoven metronomes which went into parallax errors , mechanism distortions partly in an attempt to show that they weren’t realistically achievable . I think the feeling is that as you say on lighter touch pianos they are..

PS thanks for the link - very interesting - in which one commenter tells us that Sokolov plays the F sharp minor sections staccato!

And of note is that Czerny, while providing metronome markings for the other piano sonatas, left Beethoven's for Op. 106 to stand, and he knew Beethoven and his intentions well, regarding tempi.

[verismissimo]

What think you of Malcolm Binns account on a George Haschka or even Peter Serkin on a Conrad Graf of 1824/5 unauthenticated? Tinny or tintinnambulatory?

Binns on the Haschka of c1825 is absolutely terrific - playing, instrument, recording. And it seems to be readily available on a twofer of the late sonatas:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Nos-28/dp/B000EQHV8O/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=beethoven+binns&qid=1604510343&s=music&sr=1-1