BaL 3.10.20 - Schumann: Symphony no. 3 "Rhenish"

[Nick Armstrong]

It depends on what one might think the "maximum effect" is. Firstly, there's the question of the kinds of spaces in which 19th century performances took place in distinction to modern concert halls. Schumann's orchestra was smaller because it was suited to the spaces in which it performed. It was no doubt just as powerful in those spaces as a larger orchestra might be in much larger ones. Secondly, a larger orchestra basically means adding to the string complement, which of course has a homogenising effect on the overall sound (winds in unison with strings make less of a difference to the sound the more strings there are, obviously), and this homogenisation could be seen as reducing the effect of the music by making its orchestration inevitably less colourful.

I found this a valuable context-giving post, RB, thanks.

Finally caught up with this BAL... interesting as far as it went, but I agree with others that perverse omissions (not to mention inclusions: I’m with you, Jayne, about the Muti... did we get 2 extracts of that or 3? ) made it too subjective to be a useful guide.

Gone are the days when BAL provided something approaching an authoritative survey. It now seems just randomly (and often only vaguely) interesting.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It depends on what one might think the "maximum effect" is. Firstly, there's the question of the kinds of spaces in which 19th century performances took place in distinction to modern concert halls. Schumann's orchestra was smaller because it was suited to the spaces in which it performed. It was no doubt just as powerful in those spaces as a larger orchestra might be in much larger ones. Secondly, a larger orchestra basically means adding to the string complement, which of course has a homogenising effect on the overall sound (winds in unison with strings make less of a difference to the sound the more strings there are, obviously), and this homogenisation could be seen as reducing the effect of the music by making its orchestration inevitably less colourful.

Do you think modern symphony orchestras have too large a string section? I have been to so many concerts at the RFH and Barbican where the strings have drowned out the woodwind and I’m never sure whether this is an acoustic problem or inherent in the modern layout? It’s less of a problem in the Royal Opera which has a reduced stRing section. Also I believe conductors restrain dynamics at the opera to give the singers a fighting chance. I suppose my fundamental point is that the modern symphony orchestra esp if trombones are kicking around is just too loud.

[Richard Barrett]

Do you think modern symphony orchestras have too large a string section?

Good question! I think the dominance of strings has to do with "enhancing" what's seen as a desirable (post-)Romantic orchestral sound where a large body of strings with their expressive dynamics and blended vibrato is the heart of the orchestral texture, so the more the better (it's no coincidence of course that Stravinsky with his anti-sentimental tendencies often reduced or eliminated the string section altogether!), a sonic ideal which there's no reason to believe was shared by for example Schumann, although with an enlarged brass section as you have in Wagner or (late) Bruckner or Strauss the strings probably need to be expanded to balance with them, one side-effect as you say being that the orchestra as a whole gets a lot louder. Speaking personally I haven't written that much orchestral music but from the start I went for a string section of 48 players, half of them being violins, and this has never turned out to be insufficient.

[jayne lee wilson]

The opening is the great test of the strings numbers/balance (inter alia with much else).... it was YNS in the notes to his recording that mentioned that Giulini-Rhenish Paddle Steamer, but Rattle is even better in this respect - showing how very wrongheaded those critics who get at Rattle for "hyper-detailing" really are....
if you can really hear it (very rarely...!), it sounds wonderful....

Yet on the COE/Harnoncourt it is barely perceptible...! Still one of the best for so many other virtues.....

[LMcD]

Puzzled-But-Always-Keen-To-Learn-New-Things East Coast Ignoramus asks:
What on earth is the 'Giulini Paddle Steamer Test' referred to in earlier message?
What does one have to do/fail to do to pass/fail it?
What is the average score for people who've taken it?
Are results age- or gender-influenced?

[Bryn]

Puzzled-But-Always-Keen-To-Learn-New-Things East Coast Ignoramus asks:
What on earth is the 'Giulini Paddle Steamer Test' referred to in earlier message?
What does one have to do/fail to do to pass/fail it?
What is the average score for people who've taken it?
Are results age- or gender-influenced?

Just read through the thread, particularly jlw's posts, it's all there.



(A scene from . . . )

[LMcD]

Just read through the thread, particularly jlw's posts, it's all there.



(A scene from . . . )

I think I'll just gorge myself on the nice picture rather than run the risk of headache, thanks!
[I've only just discovered - seriously! - that Siegfried's Rhine Journey was on a horse.[/I]

[cloughie]

I think I'll just gorge myself on the nice picture rather than run the risk of headache, thanks!
[I've only just discovered - seriously! - that Siegfried's Rhine Journey was on a horse.[/I]

What - no autobahns or high speed trains then!

[gradus]

Not only on a nag but playing a French horn too. Beat that.

[LMcD]

What - no autobahns or high speed trains then!

Stupidly, I thought he was on a boat. I actually gave up on this thread a while ago, because I just didn't understand some of the messages, so I didn't read the message concerned. An equally confused friend happened to ask me if I'd heard of this Giulini thing, knowing my penchant for useless facts, musical and oterwise.
Am i the only person around here who increasingly feels out of his (or her) depth at times?
(Further evidence of my stupidity - what's the connection between a German playwright and an Italian conductor?)

[cloughie]

Not only on a nag but playing a French horn too. Beat that.

Bet he could chew gum as well!

[cloughie]

Just read through the thread, particularly jlw's posts, it's all there.

...and as clear as Mersey mud!

[Petrushka]

Stupidly, I thought he was on a boat. I actually gave up on this thread a while ago, because I just didn't understand some of the messages, so I didn't read the message concerned. An equally confused friend happened to ask me if I'd heard of this Giulini thing, knowing my penchant for useless facts, musical and oterwise.
Am i the only person around here who increasingly feels out of his (or her) depth at times?
(Further evidence of my stupidity - what's the connection between a German playwright and an Italian conductor?)

Part of the joy of a forum such as this is to encounter some unexpected insight and learn from it thus deepening the enjoyment that music brings. The 'Giulini thing' is one of those moments when a conductor reveals the art of interpretation, or the art that disguises art. Wonderful that JLW has spotted it and brought it to our attention. I'll be listening to the 'Rhenish' with different ears from now on.

There is far more to music than the notes. Take whatever opportunity there is to learn how to better understand. I know I do.

[cloughie]

Part of the joy of a forum such as this is to encounter some unexpected insight and learn from it thus deepening the enjoyment that music brings. The 'Giulini thing' is one of those moments when a conductor reveals the art of interpretation, or the art that disguises art. Wonderful that JLW has spotted it and brought it to our attention. I'll be listening to the 'Rhenish' with different ears from now on.

There is far more to music than the notes. Take whatever opportunity there is to learn how to better understand. I know I do.

Can you pinpont the post nos or maybe reference the actual Giulini quote - my googling failed to source it!

[Pulcinella]

...and as clear as Mersey mud!

It's very sad that the tremendous clean-up efforts reported here

http://www.merseybasin.org.uk/archive/assets/176/original/Who_Saved_the_Mersey.pdf

are now overshadowed by other forms of pollution.

River Mersey 'most polluted' with microplastics in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-48690163