BaL 3.10.20 - Schumann: Symphony no. 3 "Rhenish"

[cloughie]

No, Dausgaard would be be in that category too - but as I keep saying, the various Chamber Orchestral or Period recordings are all pretty distinct from one another; its no longer easy to summarise "HIPPs" characteristics........ hope to post something later. Gotta have something to do when the inescapable insomnia returns....

It was the Dausgaard early on which showed the diference - I misheard!

[jayne lee wilson]

Reading through this thread from start to finish, it really does seem that BaL is a dead duck.

But don't our own discussions make it worthwhile as a starting point? And what about the Mahler Editions? MF-W was a rare example of a reviewer who takes them seriously....which they absolutely should be.

Maybe I shouldn't take this thread any further then... didn't anyone else notice how the symphony was discussed more as a Suite than a Symphony? A cause and a pause for thought.....
Oh well... never mind, never mind, I live the life I left behind....

[BBMmk2]

But don't our own discussions make it worthwhile as a starting point? And what about the Mahler Editions? MF-W was a rare example of a reviewer who takes them seriously....which they absolutely should be.

Maybe I shouldn't take this thread any further then... didn't anyone else notice how the symphony was discussed more as a Suite than a Symphony? A cause and a pause for thought.....
Oh well... never mind, never mind, I live the life I left behind....

In some cases, I think our discussions are better than Radio 3’s!

[MickyD]

Perhaps they only had time for hip replacements.

[cloughie]

Perhaps they only had time for hip replacements.

I’ll keep my Mehta running!

[Pulcinella]

It depends on what one might think the "maximum effect" is. Firstly, there's the question of the kinds of spaces in which 19th century performances took place in distinction to modern concert halls. Schumann's orchestra was smaller because it was suited to the spaces in which it performed. It was no doubt just as powerful in those spaces as a larger orchestra might be in much larger ones. Secondly, a larger orchestra basically means adding to the string complement, which of course has a homogenising effect on the overall sound (winds in unison with strings make less of a difference to the sound the more strings there are, obviously), and this homogenisation could be seen as reducing the effect of the music by making its orchestration inevitably less colourful.

The reviewer mentioned Cologne Cathedral at one point: would Schumann have had any expectation of the piece being played in such a big space?

[jayne lee wilson]

The reviewer mentioned Cologne Cathedral at one point: would Schumann have had any expectation of the piece being played in such a big space?

The Köln Cathedral was of course simply the inspiration after a visit from Schumann, for the feierlich 4th movement....he had previously set a Heine poem which evokes it "Im Rhein"....

A vision of Cologne Cathedral! No wonder some conductors like to indulge every intoxicating drop...

I was glad that MF-W mentioned the Bruckner connection...verbal, obviously but perhaps musical too....

[jayne lee wilson]

SCHUMANN 3 BAL RADIO 3 3/10/20


This was an enjoyable if limited survey, with some attempt at comparison of performance styles across the 9 recordings. But these were rather too obviously and repeatedly drawn between larger, grander SO and lighter, fleeter CO.
The only smaller forces exemplified were Dausgaard and P-Järvi, which meant no period instruments at all, a missed comparative opportunity given that JEG has done it twice, once with the ORR and very recently with the LSO. Goodman often gets overlooked in this rep now, and really, really shouldn’t be. A great set.
Long an admirer of Dausgaard here (most reviewers have finally caught up with that one…) but I’m afraid compared to to other CO recordings, I find the P-Järvi somewhat lacking in colour and rhythmic life and sheer schwung, although the excerpt from (ii) came across well.
It isn't bad and I know it reviewed well, but both YNS or Ticciati are more distinctive, and I find exactly those qualities more vividly expressed in the better-played COE/Harnoncourt, which has a wonderful way of finding the singing line across the rhythms, in the first movement especially….there’s a lovely Classical/Romantic balance to Harnoncourt’s Schumann…… so another odd if inevitable omission.
(Ticciati’s Scot CO set would be a very good modern revisionist one to move on to, if you’d never tried anything supposedly “smaller-scale”; as reviewers noted back then, it has a full rich sound, with impact and musical and textural pleasures to spare.)

Among the trad Romantics, Bruno Walter’s was described as “almost like another Eroica” (I guess MF-W meant a 20thC mod-Eroica) - so no wonder I didn’t like it, finding it thick, slow and heavy. Still, interesting from the historical perspective.
I tried to admire the Viennese Romantic view through the misty visionary and orchestrally spectacular eyes of Muti or Bernstein, but found the former lacking schwung or flow in (ii), the latter way OTT, untrue to my own Spirit of Schumann, and sounding more of a showing-off of what Bernstein could do with the Wiener Philharmoniker or in particular their horns…. (or the brasses in (iv)). I do appreciate that many enjoy all this, of course. All I ever ask is some degree of historical perspective.

Anyway, why all the VPO recordings, yet nothing from Sawallisch or Kubelik?

Upside - MF-W’s very intelligent and positive comments about the Mahler orchestration in Chailly’s superbly-played-and-recorded, inspirational LGO set. (BTW, in the booklet to the Decca set you’ll find many precise details about Mahler’s adjustments to dynamics and orchestration from David Matthews).

The finale comparisons between Bernstein and P-Järvi were just too obvious to be interesting, and those Between Solti/Bernstein/Dausgaard in (iv) seemed to be criticising a lack of sonic, quasi-religious awe or grandeur in Dausgaard, even though he isn’t aiming for anything on that rhetorical or sonic scale - which allows him to draw out the textural and emotional contrasts more vividly to my ears, and to release other meanings.
Still, MF-W always tried to be positive about each reading, and the conclusion tried to be fair about having two Schumann 3rds, large-scale and small-scale, to enjoy or to choose from. But I missed any real overview of the whole symphony, the relations of parts to whole, which are among the revelations of CO and period-instrument performances, in how, as the product of much revisionist thought from their performers, they can unify the work symphonically. This survey treated the work more like a Suite, really.

[FFRR]

I've not heard this, but to leave out Sawallisch (a standard recommendation for many years - and no reason for it not to continue to be so) and JEG/ORR seems perverse.

I don't know if this has been mooted before, but it seems to me that in re-reviews of popular repertoire, the starting point should be the previous (or generally acknowledged) recommendation, with subsequent reviews including only newer releases, to see if any can dethrone the incumbent, USW...

[jayne lee wilson]

I've not heard this, but to leave out Sawallisch (a standard recommendation for many years - and no reason for it not to continue to be so) and JEG/ORR seems perverse.

I don't know if this has been mooted before, but it seems to me that in re-reviews of popular repertoire, the starting point should be the previous (or generally acknowledged) recommendation, with subsequent reviews including only newer releases, to see if any can dethrone the incumbent, USW...

Absolutely, yes.... this is what I try to give some perspective on, when I comment on the BaL itself....

[Barbirollians]

Absolutely, yes.... this is what I try to give some perspective on, when I comment on the BaL itself....

I thought M F-W was interesting but as noted above in the 45 minutes she was allocated we had several minutes of unnecessary twofer interruptions which could have allowed her to illustrate from more versions.

A Rhenish BAL without even reference to Sawallisch, Gardiner, Kubelik or Harnoncourt is just odd.

[richardfinegold]

But how closely have you really listened to Harnoncourt, Dausgaard, Ticciati (all "modern" instrument) or JEG or Goodman.... "stodge" maybe, in any case, an overstated term; for me its more about the inappropriate, full-Romantic-orchestral heaviness, a lack of rhythmic, motivic and overall expressive agility, which sounds like a serious compromise of the essentially volatile moods of Schumann's work (which become even more obvious if you take time to know, feel, and love the chamber and instrumental repertoire).

All this is true of Mendelssohn too. But until you live with that different sound, saturate yourself in its newness, its revelations, how would you know?
Yes, I did hear many of those recordings you mention, many of which do their very best to adapt this big, rich, Symphony-Orchestral beast to the delicacy and subtlety of the early-romantic style. (Sawallisch/Furtwangler: great, memorable and impassioned recordings, but: Schumann in the style of postwar 20thC Bruckner). But you have to have it all in your heart and your head, to hear, know, and feel the difference.

Like/dislike is fine but learning to appreciate the relative, historical values, the (continuing) evolution of performance styles, is much more interesting.

Microcosm: compare the 1841/1851 Schumann 4ths.... any recording really, but with the same conductor/orchestra.....

In other words: Schumann knew the difference...

The Schumann Symphonies are one corpus of Music that I do thing benefits from reduced Orchestral forces. My current favorite is Dausgaard. I have been listening to Szell lately for the sake of nostalgia, still enjoyable, but also somewhat feeling like a big Rolls Royce idling in the driveway, with Dausgaard a zippy BMW roadster racing on the autobahn. Not yet ready, though, to delete Karajan, Kubelik, and Szell from the HD.
Mendelssohn can take the bigger forces, because his spring is more imaginative with textures less likely to blend like Schumann's do into a grey undifferentiated wall of sound

[Wolfram]

SCHUMANN 3 BAL RADIO 3 3/10/20


I tried to admire the Viennese Romantic view through the misty visionary and orchestrally spectacular eyes of Muti or Bernstein, but found the former lacking schwung or flow in (ii), the latter way OTT

Typical Lennie; too much Florestan, not enough Eusebius.

[jayne lee wilson]

Typical Lennie; too much Florestan, not enough Eusebius.

Damn Wolfram, I'd tried (and failed) to work that one in somewhere myself....

[jayne lee wilson]

Schumann Symphony No.3 BPO/Rattle......Qobuz 24/96......

Really surprised at this one - very supple infinitely detailed but always serving the musical line wonderfully well. It passes the Giulini Paddle Steamer Test in (i) better than any other recording I've heard - and on a pretty full-sounding Symphony Orchestra (Haven't checked exactly on the Berlin numbers). Innumerable little touches bring the music to new life, but always with a lovely natural flow. Slight doubts about the final peroration, perhaps a little short-phrased, but I'll listen again...
The river flows (and swings - or maybe swells) in (ii), the brass are magnificent but utterly unrhetorical in (iv).....

For me the very opening is the acid test - needs definition and a firm rhythmic hand, but mustn't stamp out the rhythm too strongly and impede the singing melody, and you still need to hear that paddle-steamer behind it all - very few find a good balance here. It really should soar, and Rattle does it beautifully. Try YNS for a perfect, different example.

I'll have to return for more insights and try the rest of the cycle. Listening to chamber/instrumental music almost exclusively for weeks, I was delighted to find this so compelling. Straight to the top of my full-SO preferences. Like many here, I'd blown hot and cold about Rattle's Berlin productions, and the Philharmonie is never going to be my favourite acoustic as a recording venue, but so lovely to hear this orchestra again.

Do try it!