BaL 3.10.20 - Schumann: Symphony no. 3 "Rhenish"

[jayne lee wilson]

Oh yes. Two examples: the inverted turn just before the end of the slow movement in Schumann is echoed in the last four notes (violas) at the end of Mahler 9; the principal motive of the second trio of Schumann's scherzo is echoed in the Rondo-Burleske of the same symphony, making its first appearance at bar 209, stated much more clearly in the first violins at bar 248 and then becoming one of the themes of the double fugue at 311, etc.

Many thanks RB... I don't have a score and am hopeless at following them anyway..... (always pages behind at the end)....but I'll listen again closely....

[Joseph K]

Oh yes. Two examples: the inverted turn just before the end of the slow movement in Schumann is echoed in the last four notes (violas) at the end of Mahler 9; the principal motive of the second trio of Schumann's scherzo is echoed in the Rondo-Burleske of the same symphony, making its first appearance at bar 209, stated much more clearly in the first violins at bar 248 and then becoming one of the themes of the double fugue at 311, etc.

I love Mahler 9, so I'm going to have to listen again to Schumann 2 again - this time with fresh ears.

[cloughie]

yes,can’t hear this work without Mahler appearing from the future. Esp in the slow movement played a certain way.( the Sinopoli way in fact) ....or the right way as some would have it....

Or even in Solti's recording - he takes the second movement at one hell of a lick and then the contrast of the slow movement - yes there is a Mahlerian feel to it, but it needs that weight to bring it off.

[jayne lee wilson]

I must say I'm very sceptical about Mahler consciously or deliberately referencing. or echoing, Schumann or Schubert and so on (I recall Stephen Johnson finding echoes of Schubert in Mahler 4). As a great conductor he would have know the music intimately (think of his work on Weber), so they were a part of the symphonic culture feeding into, nourishing, or merely accidentally catching up into, his own creations. I'm sure this happens in music and the other arts all the time as a continuous but always irregular even contradictory process.

This is another reason why I always feel how vital it is to hear other than large Romantic Symphony-Orchestral recordings of such repertoire. Focus on the power and originality of the works themselves in their own musical-historcial context, get away from the temptation to focus on those future echoes, influences and references...

[Richard Barrett]

I don't have a score and am hopeless at following them anyway..... (always pages behind at the end)

Try this instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV02L0VMvug at 17:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah3mcaRpc9Q at 43:48
(and the even more glaring "coincidences" between Schumann 3 and the finale of Mahler 1)

[jayne lee wilson]

Try this instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV02L0VMvug at 17:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah3mcaRpc9Q at 43:48

[Richard Barrett]

I must say I'm very sceptical about Mahler consciously or deliberately referencing. or echoing, Schumann or Schubert and so on

I would imagine the two examples I quoted were things Mahler was conscious of, in the same way that (as is known) he was conscious of the similarities between Meistersinger and the finale of his 7th. I don't think hearing and noting these things in any way detracts from the power or originality of Mahler. Or Schumann - I agree that seeing one artist in terms of being a forerunner of another doesn't do the former sufficient credit (other highly original composers like Weber and CPE Bach suffer even more from this).

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think this is a very good BAL - the reviewer really knows what she’s talking about. What a wonderful work this is - cannot understand why it’s not performed more often.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think it’s clear that twoferism is in full swing today. Completely unnecessary interruptions.

She doesn’t need any help does she?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

She doesn’t need any help does she?

[cloughie]

Yes, she knows her onions, and I like her. But what I find frustrating about the way BaL is run now, even more than the twofer format, is how few versions get a look in. Was it six or seven out of dozens? No classic Sawallisch (admittedly hampered by its recording quality), either of the JEGs, Ticciati etc etc. There was no indication she’d even listened to Amy of these. Not her fault, but it’s reducing the value of the exercise for me.

Then we end up with what is probably a great choice but appears to be available as a download or a barely available, rather costly CD!

[cloughie]

Some BaLs are worse than others. I did not switch off today but did find myself only half listening.

It started well but seem to tail off somehow and though it covered the years seemed a small number of recordings considered overall, probably not helped by ‘Interfering Andrew’!

[gradus]

I liked the sound of Bernstein /VPO and didn't think the Jarvi came near it, unlike the reviewers. Both Walter and Muti also sounded wonderful. Karajan/BPO is very fine too.

[Goon525]

I liked the sound of Bernstein /VPO and didn't think the Jarvi came near it, unlike the reviewers. Both Walter and Muti also sounded wonderful. Karajan/BPO is very fine too.

I think we can figure out your stylistic preferences...big, beefy and old-fashioned. Nothing wrong with that, of course!

[visualnickmos]

I think we can figure out your stylistic preferences...big, beefy and old-fashioned. Nothing wrong with that, of course!

Indeed not. I feel that Schumann does need larger 'old-fashioned(!)' forces to pull it off to maximum effect. However, nothing wrong with smaller chamber-type forces, for a different approach, which many prefer.In either case, it's a question getting the equilibrium exactly right. I would imagine Schumann is easy to make a muddle of!