BaL 3.10.20 - Schumann: Symphony no. 3 "Rhenish"

[cloughie]

But how closely have you really listened to Harnoncourt, Dausgaard, Ticciati (all "modern" instrument) or JEG or Goodman.... "stodge" maybe, in any case, an overstated term; for me its more about the inappropriate, full-Romantic-orchestral heaviness, a lack of rhythmic, motivic and overall expressive agility, which sounds like a serious compromise of the essentially volatile moods of Schumann's work (which become even more obvious if you take time to know, feel, and love the chamber and instrumental repertoire).

All this is true of Mendelssohn too. But until you live with that different sound, saturate yourself in its newness, its revelations, how would you know?
Yes, I did hear many of those recordings you mention, many of which do their very best to adapt this big, rich, Symphony-Orchestral beast to the delicacy and subtlety of the early-romantic style. (Sawallisch/Furtwangler: great, memorable and impassioned recordings, but: Schumann in the style of postwar 20thC Bruckner). But you have to have it all in your heart and your head, to hear, know, and feel the difference.

Like/dislike is fine but learning to appreciate the relative, historical values, the (continuing) evolution of performance styles, is much more interesting.

Microcosm: compare the 1841/1851 4ths.... any recording really, but with the same conductor/orchestra.....

In other words: Schumann knew the difference...

Well after a lifetime of listening I realise I know nothing and my musical tastes and likes are all wrong - what wasted years! I’ll just have rent a big skip to put all those CDs of performances by conductors who knew so little about the way the music should be interpreted - well really probably most of the recordings from the 20th Century should go in there - now which do you think should go first?

[jayne lee wilson]

Well after a lifetime of listening I realise I know nothing and my musical tastes and likes are all wrong - what wasted years! I’ll just have rent a big skip to put all those CDs of performances by conductors who knew so little about the way the music should be interpreted - well really probably most of the recordings from the 20th Century should go in there - now which do you think should go first?

Well as I just (and often have) said ....

Like/dislike is fine but learning to appreciate the relative, historical values, the (continuing) evolution of performance styles, is much more interesting.

Microcosm: compare the 1841/1851 Schumann 4ths.... any recording really, but with the same conductor/orchestra.....
....Schumann knew the difference....

No need for such a dichotomy of extremes Cloughie, especially with the embarras de richesses in the 21stC......spark your curiosity, spread your wings, take the longer wider view, enjoy yourself...
(Anyway - if I do choose one to hear soon it will be Berlin Phil/Rattle.... never yet got around to that one...where does that register on the trad/HIPPs scale, d'you think? Did the Philharmoniker give Rattle Fürtwangler again?)

[Richard Barrett]

which you may written off without a listen because as you say you don’t really like the music

Not a bit of it. Of course for many years, the recordings you mention represented the only recordings (or for that matter live performances) of things like Schumann symphonies that it was possible to hear. So I could hardly have missed them! And indeed I thought I didn't really like the music, although it turns out that actually what I was objecting to is the way it was played. As Jayne says, we all have different preferences, different ways of hearing things. There is no such thing as musical tastes being "wrong"!

[teamsaint]

Not a bit of it. Of course for many years, the recordings you mention represented the only recordings (or for that matter live performances) of things like Schumann symphonies that it was possible to hear. So I could hardly have missed them! And indeed I thought I didn't really like the music, although it turns out that actually what I was objecting to is the way it was played. As Jayne says, we all have different preferences, different ways of hearing things. There is no such thing as musical tastes being "wrong"!

there are people who have a good go at it though.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Well after a lifetime of listening I realise I know nothing and my musical tastes and likes are all wrong - what wasted years! I’ll just have rent a big skip to put all those CDs of performances by conductors who knew so little about the way the music should be interpreted - well really probably most of the recordings from the 20th Century should go in there - now which do you think should go first?

No particular order, Cloughie; just let me know where the skip is. I’d like to add to my collection of recordings by conductors who know nothing.

[cloughie]

No particular order, Cloughie; just let me know where the skip is. I’d like to add to my collection of recordings by conductors who know nothing.

It's on hold at the moment as one or two conductors still alive have asked me to not to proceed as they claim to have got the composers' intentions spot on!

[Richard Barrett]

It's on hold at the moment as one or two conductors still alive have asked me to not to proceed as they claim to have got the composers' intentions spot on!

Of course the issues under discussion here have very little to do with what the composers' intentions may or may not have been, but with what kind of sound brings that music to life for different listeners.

[cloughie]

Of course the issues under discussion here have very little to do with what the composers' intentions may or may not have been, but with what kind of sound brings that music to life for different listeners.

I think they do because that partly determines how they come to life!

[LMcD]

Well after a lifetime of listening I realise I know nothing and my musical tastes and likes are all wrong - what wasted years! I’ll just have rent a big skip to put all those CDs of performances by conductors who knew so little about the way the music should be interpreted - well really probably most of the recordings from the 20th Century should go in there - now which do you think should go first?

It looks as though knuckle-rapping season has started early, old chap. Perhaps you, Manuel and myself could start up a FoR3 version of Confederacy of Dunces. I didn't have the faintest idea how misguided I am - I'd better go and stand in the corner and try REALLY HARD to sort myself out, while chanting quietly 'Karajan knew nuffink ... Karajan knew nuffink ... Karajan knew nuffink'

[Richard Barrett]

I think they do because that partly determines how they come to life!

Clearly. But then there's interpretation, and Furtwängler sounds right for some people while JEG sounds right for others. Just as, say, Wagner liked certain harmonies that Brahms found ugly and vice versa. Once again, nobody is calling your preferences into question or calling them mistaken. Or rapping any knuckles. I just remarked that this music started to make sense to me when I heard a style of performing it that brought it to life for me for the first time. Whether it comes closer to the composer's intentions might be argued but that really isn't the point as far as I'm concerned.

[LMcD]

Clearly. But then there's interpretation, and Furtwängler sounds right for some people while JEG sounds right for others. Just as, say, Wagner liked certain harmonies that Brahms found ugly and vice versa. Once again, nobody is calling your preferences into question or calling them mistaken. Or rapping any knuckles. I just remarked that this music started to make sense to me when I heard a style of performing it that brought it to life for me for the first time. Whether it comes closer to the composer's intentions might be argued but that really isn't the point as far as I'm concerned.

I'm still trying to get my head round 'dichotomy of extremes' - please forgive me if I sometimes get the feeling that I'm being talked down to. I freely admit that I'm more Ronnie Corbett than John Cleese or Ronnie Barker when it comes to appreciating music and examining why I like or dislike something, but I don't really want to get a crick in my neck from looking up all the time
To me, ANY recording or performance of, say, a Mozart or Sibelius symphony is going to sound wonderful - perhaps that's because I've come to realize that great works can be interpreted in any number of ways. A simplistic approach, maybe, but it works for me. (Must go, I've got to knock off the Times crossword before I trudge up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire - probably humming something by Wolfgang Amadeus).

[jayne lee wilson]

Of course the issues under discussion here have very little to do with what the composers' intentions may or may not have been, but with what kind of sound brings that music to life for different listeners.

Absolutely, but - I didn't say this before as I thought it axiomatic - it also has essentially to do with the very orchestras that Schumann, Mendelssohn and others were actually writing for, with that sound in mind, a sound produced by instruments of a very different character to those of the late 20thC, and usually in far smaller orchestras.
Even when you take the time and trouble to find out about the orchestras Brahms wrote for, you'll a very wide range of instrumental forces and characters. Why wouldn't any curious musiclover wish to know about all this?

***

But alas, all this seems now to be treated as a pedantic, frivolous luxury on this once so wise, deep, and knowledgable forum. Where once you could share knowledge, enjoy learning from the knowledge of others, and admit your own mistakes or limitations, without "feeling talked down to". I really miss the way it was.
Too many listeners here, with no recollection of how it was just a few years ago, have little curiosity beyond "I know what I like and I like what I know....", apparently threatened by anyone suggesting they might investigate a little further, and even enjoy doing so.....

How dismaying it is to find contributors complaining about a phrase like "dichotomy of extremes" (also known as "black and white thinking") even as they reveal it themselves, when all they need to do is ....google it...or even, God Forbid so revolutionary an act - pick up a dictionary occasionally. Instead, they repeatedly indulge their impulses to make mock, make fun and spread silliness: it is the imp of the perverse; Mahler's ape squatting on the gravestones.

So I'll probably stick around, but will have to seriously curtail any detailed contributions based on my own listening, my own knowledge of the repertoire and all the recorded catalogue, developed over 40 years, covering nearly a century of mono and stereo recordings. A great shame since there are few enough places where one can enjoy such activity and above all - enjoy sharing it and learning from others.

Thanks to the self-named dunces who wish to dismiss that curiosity, adventure and sheer intelligence that characterises all the best listening in a tradition that grew up through the Gramophone and Radio 3 and which this forum has tried to preserve, renew and continue, it seems that such contributions are now simply a waste of time.

How terribly sad.

[vibratoforever]

Absolutely, but - I didn't say this before as I thought it axiomatic - it also has essentially to do with the very orchestras that Schumann, Mendelssohn and others were actually writing for, with that sound in mind, a sound produced by instruments of a very different character to those of the late 20thC, and usually in far smaller orchestras.
Even when you take the time and trouble to find out about the orchestras Brahms wrote for, you'll a very wide range of instrumental forces and characters. Why wouldn't any curious musiclover wish to know about all this?

***

But alas, all this seems now to be treated as a pedantic, frivolous luxury on this once so wise, deep, and knowledgable forum. Where once you could share knowledge, enjoy learning from the knowledge of others, and admit your own mistakes or limitations, without "feeling talked down to". I really miss the way it was.
Too many listeners here, with no recollection of how it was just a few years ago, have little curiosity beyond "I know what I like and I like what I know....", apparently threatened by anyone suggesting they might investigate a little further, and even enjoy doing so.....

How dismaying it is to find contributors complaining about a phrase like "dichotomy of extremes" (also known as "black and white thinking") even as they reveal it themselves, when all they need to do is ....google it...or even, God Forbid so revolutionary an act - pick up a dictionary occasionally. Instead, they repeatedly indulge their impulses to make mock, make fun and spread silliness: it is the imp of the perverse; Mahler's ape squatting on the gravestones.

So I'll probably stick around, but will have to seriously curtail any detailed contributions based on my own listening, my own knowledge of the repertoire and all the recorded catalogue, developed over 40 years, covering nearly a century of mono and stereo recordings. A great shame since there are few enough places where one can enjoy such activity and above all - enjoy sharing it and learning from others.

Thanks to the self-named dunces who wish to dismiss that curiosity, intelligence, adventure and sheer intelligence that characterises all the best listening in a tradition that grew up through the Gramophone and Radio 3 and which this forum has tried to preserve, renew and continue, it seems that such contributions are now simply a waste of time.

How terribly sad.

I think you protest too much. The penultimate paragraph includes many unwarranted assumptions on your part, and not a just a smidgeon of self-importance

[LMcD]

The Gramophone review of Dohnanyi's 'Rhenish' refers to its 'undeniable buoyancy' - a very perceptive comment, wouldn't you say? Joachim Engpass suggests, in his customary challenging way, that there's a particular point in the 2nd movement which clearly reveals that this is the work of a man who is already thinking of throwing himself into the river at some point, particularly if his work gets a bad review. I just think it sounds nice and, as far as I can tell, all the musicians seem to be playing all the right notes in the right order.

If it helps, I'll ask the lady wife to run up an IDC* that I can don when I start reading my copy of 'Dead German Composers For Dummies' which I've just ordered from Amazon. Unfortunately, it's only available in Swahili, but I've got round that by also ordering a copy of 'Swahili For Dummies' (unfortunately that's only available in Cornish, but that shouldn't be a problem ).

In the meantime, I shall continue to learn from others, expressing my gratitude as is my custom, my right to self-deprecation unscathed by any personal comments that may slip - inadvertently, I'm sure - into the odd message from others.

I'm flattered that my contributions on certain subjects are considered silly enough to bring about a wholesale deterioration in the character of the Forum as a whole, and, replacing my IDC with my IBW**, would offer in my defence, as examples of my more serious oeuvre***, (a) my repeated heartfelt and, I would submit, well-argued postings about Elgar, and (b) my enthusiasm for, and reviews of, lunchtime concerts, which I hope will encourage others to listen to ***** and comment on******.

I shall continue to adhere strictly to my policy of avoiding ad hominem**** attacks on others.

* Imaginary Dunce's Cap
** Imaginary Barrister's Wig
*** Grade 3 'A' level French, 1962
**** Grade 3 GCE 'A' level Latin. 1962
**** Oh dear - just noticed I've used a preposition to end a sentence with
****** Oh dear, just noticed I've ......

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

there are people who have a good go at it though.

...and herewithin lies the problem. Some people adopt a viewpoint - as a result of experience, research or ideology - and then argue that every other viewpoint is wrong. Unfortunately, some BaL reviewers do the same.