BaL 3.10.20 - Schumann: Symphony no. 3 "Rhenish"

[Darloboy]

Well, her PhD was on Schumann's symphonies.
Here's an extract from her entry on the University of Cambridge Faculty of Music website,
https://www.mus.cam.ac.uk/directory/...frolova-walker

Yes, I heard Andrew's reference to this at the beginning of the programme but a Russian PhD on the influence of Schumann's symphonies on Russian music in 1994 - 3 years before Gardiner's period recording - doesn't necessarily mean that she's the best person to present a BaL on the Rhenish in 2020.

[Darloboy]

But don't our own discussions make it worthwhile as a starting point? And what about the Mahler Editions? MF-W was a rare example of a reviewer who takes them seriously....which they absolutely should be.

Maybe I shouldn't take this thread any further then... didn't anyone else notice how the symphony was discussed more as a Suite than a Symphony? A cause and a pause for thought.....
Oh well... never mind, never mind, I live the life I left behind....

I think this was one of the poorest BaLs I've heard, even if M F-W did mention the Mahler edition. An extremely short shortlist with no explanation as to how it was arrived at, especially important given that it omitted both Sawallisch and Gardiner. I'd suggest comparing this programme with the podcast of Erica Jeal on the Spring Symphony from January 2014. Jeal's first choice was Zinman but she also covered period performance (Gardiner); the Mahler edition (Chailly); as well Holliger's restored opening.

[Alison]

Yes, I heard Andrew's reference to this at the beginning of the programme but a Russian PhD on the influence of Schumann's symphonies on Russian music in 1994 - 3 years before Gardiner's period recording - doesn't necessarily mean that she's the best person to present a BaL on the Rhenish in 2020.

Agreed.

[Darloboy]

Checked which CDs are on my shelf. I have some good versions in conductor boxes: Tennstedt/BPO, Karajan/BPO, Bernstein/NYPO, also Toscanini on the complete RCA. I couldn't remember it and have just listened - a strong performance in admittedly not so great 1949 sound.

Last time's BaL first choice from Piers Burton-Page in 2006 was John Eliot Gardiner/Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique with "Budget Choice": London Philharmonic Orchestra, Kurt Masur on Warner Apex. I have both those + Norrington and have since also acquired the exhilarating "urtext" version with Frank Beermann and the Robert Schumann Philharmonie, Chemnitz from 2009 on cpo, so am probably not in line for a new purchase but will certainly listen with interest.

There was also a panel (Anthony Burton, Edward Greenfield, Stephen Johnson, Jonathan Swain - a four-fer?) BaL on all 4 symphonies in 1993. Sawallisch was 1st choice for the complete cycle (with Wand as 1st choice for the 4th). Second choice (modern sound) for 2 & 3 was BPO/Levine and Chailly/Concertgebouw for 1 & 4.

[Nick Armstrong]

Yes, I heard Andrew's reference to this at the beginning of the programme but a Russian PhD on the influence of Schumann's symphonies on Russian music in 1994 - 3 years before Gardiner's period recording - doesn't necessarily mean that she's the best person to present a BaL on the Rhenish in 2020.

I agree with this and your subsequent post #184, Darloboy

[DracoM]

I agree, as was the failure to engage with period performances full stop. I suspected that this might the case as soon as I saw that M F-W was the reviewer given that her normal focus is on late 19th c Russian romantic repertoire and I'd question whether she was the right choice for this work.

Maybe another reviewer, on being told it would be 'a twofer', pulled out?

[LeMartinPecheur]

I think this was one of the poorest BaLs I've heard, even if M F-W did mention the Mahler edition. An extremely short shortlist with no explanation as to how it was arrived at, especially important given that it omitted both Sawallisch and Gardiner. I'd suggest comparing this programme with the podcast of Erica Jeal on the Spring Symphony from January 2014. Jeal's first choice was Zinman but she also covered period performance (Gardiner); the Mahler edition (Chailly); as well Holliger's restored opening.

One comment from M F-W that I certainly found very interesting and which I hoped might have been commented on here (apologies if I've missed it somehow). She claimed that Schumann's oft-criticized 'thick' scoring, with much doubling of parts between strings and winds, was a sensible, practical defence against the poor standards of the orchestras he knew would be playing the works after he left Leipzig in late 1844.

AFAIK of his symphonies only the first comes before this: can anyone say if this seems better scored than the rest? The Overture, Scherzo and Finale may also be a reference-point, comp. 1841 and rev. 1845.

[Nick Armstrong]

She claimed that Schumann's oft-criticized 'thick' scoring, with much doubling of parts between strings and winds, was a sensible, practical defence against the poor standards of the orchestras he knew would be playing the works after he left Leipzig in late 1844.

Yes that was one of the anecdotal points of interest in the chat, it caught my ear too and made me wonder...

[richardfinegold]

I am intrigued by the reference to to the influence of the Schumann symphonies on the development of Russian Music. Without reading her thesis, anyone able to sum it up in 150 characters or less?

[jayne lee wilson]

One comment from M F-W that I certainly found very interesting and which I hoped might have been commented on here (apologies if I've missed it somehow). She claimed that Schumann's oft-criticized 'thick' scoring, with much doubling of parts between strings and winds, was a sensible, practical defence against the poor standards of the orchestras he knew would be playing the works after he left Leipzig in late 1844.

AFAIK of his symphonies only the first comes before this: can anyone say if this seems better scored than the rest? The Overture, Scherzo and Finale may also be a reference-point, comp. 1841 and rev. 1845.

As I said above - Schumann's 4th, in its 1841 and 1851 versions, is your ideal starting and reference point...the locus classicus.... and then listen to the Mahler Edition...
(Brahms, among others, always preferred 1841.....not a bad authority, really... I think Clara Schumann went the other way though, just to add a little more spice to the blend...)

[mikealdren]

....... An extremely short shortlist with no explanation as to how it was arrived at, especially important given that it omitted both Sawallisch and Gardiner.

I think this was explained by her comment about the recordings that she was sent, I have a horrible suspicion that AMcG or a producer now decides which versions are reviewed.

[Richard Barrett]

Schumann's oft-criticized 'thick' scoring, with much doubling of parts between strings and winds, was a sensible, practical defence against the poor standards of the orchestras he knew would be playing the works after he left Leipzig in late 1844.

Indeed the poor standard of the Düsseldorf orchestra is commented on in many sources. And, as Jayne implies, this is one of the features of Schumann's scoring that Mahler does much to clean up.

[CallMePaul]

I think this was explained by her comment about the recordings that she was sent, I have a horrible suspicion that AMcG or a producer now decides which versions are reviewed.

I have suggested, I think it was in relation to Vivaldi's Four Seasons a few years back, that a producer may have drawn up a shortlist. AMcG is generally enthusiastic about HIPP recordings, so I find him not guilty of any involvement in this shortlist. However, failure to mention HIPP may be due to the lack of interest in period performance in Russia, despite the work of Teodor Currentzis (Greek of course, even though he works in Russia). I am not aware of any period performances of Borodin or Balakirev, for example, and there appear to be hardly any of Tchaikovsky or Rimsky-Korsakov. I believe there ia one period piano recording of Pictures from an Exhibition, which I would like to investigate, but it seems to be hard to find.

[jayne lee wilson]

I have suggested, I think it was in relation to Vivaldi's Four Seasons a few years back, that a producer may have drawn up a shortlist. AMcG is generally enthusiastic about HIPP recordings, so I find him not guilty of any involvement in this shortlist. However, failure to mention HIPP may be due to the lack of interest in period performance in Russia, despite the work of Teodor Currentzis (Greek of course, even though he works in Russia). I am not aware of any period performances of Borodin or Balakirev, for example, and there appear to be hardly any of Tchaikovsky or Rimsky-Korsakov. I believe there ia one period piano recording of Pictures from an Exhibition, which I would like to investigate, but it seems to be hard to find.

There is an orchestral one, quite recent.....

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/ravel-la-valse-mussorgsky-les-tableaux-dune-exposition-orch-ravel-les-siecles-and-francois-xavier-roth/quwqgn2htdrpc

Heras-Casado recorded Winter Daydreams with the Orchestra of St. Lukes, in part an attempt to relocate it in the post-Mendelssohnian, Schumann-esque historical context. See Gramophone 2/2017.

[cloughie]

I’m not sure what a period performance of eg a Tchaikovsky symphony should sound like other than their horns probably sound like they do on Melodiya recordings from the 60s and maybe the PCO sound on Erich Kleiber’s 4 & 6 comes close.