BaL 22.02.20 - Grieg: Holberg Suite

[Wolfram]

All seems well in BaL land tonight, well done Oliver Condy and Andrew McG; our knowledge of and enthusiasm for this work have gone up a few notches this late winter Saturday.

Great post from Ed to confirm that impression.

I thought Oliver Condy was excellent; an excellent review with plenty of insight into the piece, well reasoned choices and a natural broadcaster into the bargain. If he ever decides to jump ship from BBCMM to Radio 3 he could well be a natural successor to Andrew should the later ever decide to move on from RR.

[BBMmk2]

Indeed - particularly as it was originally conceived for piano. It’s interesting to compare the broken chord piano figurations in the opening movement with the quite different rhythmic transformation for strings in the later version.

I’ve been practising it on the piano since the broadcast, being a work I’ve toyed with from time to time. Time to get serious!

I must get round to that too!

[Barbirollians]

Just think how much Mr Condy would have been without the distractions of the twofer format.

[Wolfram]

Just think how much Mr Condy would have been without the distractions of the twofer format.

Absolutely.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... it is unfair to compare a version which one friend of mine described as suitable for a Grade 6 pianist ...

A Grade 6 pianist with Rachmaninov-sized hands.

[Maclintick]

genuine folk music had more in common with the Irish or Scots traditions than anything you might hear in Grieg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZX0e65xMtw

I agree this applies even to the extended Hardanger fiddle solo in Peer Gynt. Disregarding folk influences, which for obvious stylistic reasons don't figure in the Holberg Suite, I'm fascinated by Ed's neat consignment of compositional neo-classicism into a "radical" Stravinskian box. Several not-insignificant late 19th cent. composers reclaimed baroque formal structures -- Grieg in the present instance, but also Brahms resurrecting the passacaglia in the finale of 4th Symphony, Reger & others who similarly found inspiration facing backwards, as it were. Later, of course, but still pre-dating Stravinsky, Respighi (Ancient Airs & Dances) Ravel (Tombeau de Couperin) & Prokofiev (Classical Symphony) were neo-baroquists embracing 18th cent formal structures, but in harmonic & melodic language entirely 20th cent. I agree with the characterisation of Holberg as an homage rather than pastiche, but that formerly derided art-form has negative connotations & may be due for a re-appraisal. Apologies for the following "off-topic" -- "Verry Interesting, but Stupid", as Arte Johnson would say (apol. younger viewers)

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/why-pastiche-has-taken-over-music/

Good BAL, BTW. No quibble with Condy's recommendation, though I occasionally found his vocabulary ("lurchy") irritating..

[edashtav]

I agree this applies even to the extended Hardanger fiddle solo in Peer Gynt. Disregarding folk influences, which for obvious stylistic reasons don't figure in the Holberg Suite, I'm fascinated by Ed's neat consignment of compositional neo-classicism into a "radical" Stravinskian box. Several not-insignificant late 19th cent. composers reclaimed baroque formal structures -- Grieg in the present instance, but also Brahms resurrecting the passacaglia in the finale of 4th Symphony, Reger & others who similarly found inspiration facing backwards, as it were. Later, of course, but still pre-dating Stravinsky, Respighi (Ancient Airs & Dances) Ravel (Tombeau de Couperin) & Prokofiev (Classical Symphony) were neo-baroquists embracing 18th cent formal structures, but in harmonic & melodic language entirely 20th cent. I agree with the characterisation of Holberg as an homage rather than pastiche, but that formerly derided art-form has negative connotations & may be due for a re-appraisal. Apologies for the following "off-topic" -- "Verry Interesting, but Stupid", as Arte Johnson would say (apol. younger viewers)

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/why-pastiche-has-taken-over-music/

Good BAL, BTW. No quibble with Condy's recommendation, though I occasionally found his vocabulary ("lurchy") irritating..

That's a fascinating post, Maclintick, which deserves thorough dissection. However, I shall not trade definitions of neo-classicism with you, as our differences are ones of emphasis, not factual.

I cannot let your second sentence pass! There are overt folk references in two of the Holberg movements. I shall not whine about the drone but quote an on-line note from the Oxford Chamber Music Festival set of slides prepared by d'Overbroeckes:
"Spirited Passagework
Listen to the 5th movement, the Rigaudon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGAVDqel2hQ

Grieg uses passages of fast quavers, known as passagework, to create an uplifting and lively folk feel.
Many folk violinists use semiquaver or quaver passagework to create music to lift the spirits.
Sometimes the fast notes are SWUNG to give a more lilting feel... perfect for dancing to!"
Q.E.D.?

[Maclintick]

That's a fascinating post, Maclintick, which deserves thorough dissection. However, I shall not trade definitions of neo-classicism with you, as our differences are ones of emphasis, not factual.

I cannot let your second sentence pass! There are overt folk references in two of the Holberg movements. I shall not whine about the drone but quote an on-line note from the Oxford Chamber Music Festival set of slides prepared by d'Overbroeckes:
"Spirited Passagework
Listen to the 5th movement, the Rigaudon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGAVDqel2hQ

Grieg uses passages of fast quavers, known as passagework, to create an uplifting and lively folk feel.
Many folk violinists use semiquaver or quaver passagework to create music to lift the spirits.
Sometimes the fast notes are SWUNG to give a more lilting feel... perfect for dancing to!"
Q.E.D.?

Touché, Ed. On reflection I would now recant & say, in the sentence you disagreed with, "Disregarding folk influences, which for obvious stylistic reasons don't predominate in the Holberg Suite" in the sense that romantic harmony & melody have a more-than-equal part to play in this lovely work, as they do in the equally folk-inspired Zigeuner passages in the Brahms Violin Concerto, for instance, or works of the 19th Cent. Czech & Russian national schools. But, I'm very interested to learn where neo-baroque parts company with neo-classical, & whether one can spot the joins. Baroque forms are, if I'm not mistaken, all based on different flavours of folk-dances.

[edashtav]

I'll return to neo-classicism, later, as there's very little that separates us, but... I'm tired and must wash up!
Sorry,
ED

[edashtav]

maclintick wrote
"I'm fascinated by Ed's neat consignment of compositional neo-classicism into a "radical" Stravinskian box. Several not-insignificant late 19th cent. composers reclaimed baroque formal structures -- Grieg in the present instance, but also Brahms resurrecting the passacaglia in the finale of 4th Symphony, Reger & others who similarly found inspiration facing backwards, as it were. Later, of course, but still pre-dating Stravinsky, Respighi (Ancient Airs & Dances) Ravel (Tombeau de Couperin) & Prokofiev (Classical Symphony) were neo-baroquists embracing 18th cent formal structures, but in harmonic & melodic language entirely 20th cent."
The problem that I sense we share is that the term "neo-classicism" was coined, I suspect, to describe the revolution headed by Stravinsky and then Hindemith in the 1920s which used, or maybe subverted, the forms and processes of earlier music, into works which sounded more like Igor and Paul than Pergolesi and Bach. Only more recently have musicologists realised that 'anachronistic' music had a healthy life from the rediscovery of JSB by Mendelssohn, a movement which bloomed via the composers that you list onwards from the 1880s.

I suppose I see the "new wine in old bottles" as a spectrum from those composers who are consciously in the Old style e.g. Grieg (Holberg) and Tchaikovsky ( Mozartiana Suite [where one movement is Mozart filtered by Liszt]) through Ravel and the 'Tombeau' school, to the modernist neo-classicism of Stravinsky, Hindemith and Petrassi).

Should the whole movement be called 'Anachronistic' with a subset of 'neo- classical', or is 'neo-classical' the umbrella and 'anachronistic' reserved for its pastiche component?

I think we agree on the field of discussion but disagree over terminology.

Do you concur, maclintick?

[Maclintick]

Should the whole movement be called 'Anachronistic' with a subset of 'neo- classical', or is 'neo-classical' the umbrella and 'anachronistic' reserved for its pastiche component?

I think we agree on the field of discussion but disagree over terminology.

Do you concur, maclintick?

I think so, Ed, though in the case of Stravinsky, the situation is somewhat confusing in that his compositional trajectory towards neo-classicism after the Russian period ending in 1917 with Les Noces can't be conveniently mapped chronologically or in terms of 'Anachronistic' vs 'Neoclassical'. The seminal & sublime Symphonies of Wind Instruments (1920), for instance, were one able to hear it with a completely "innocent ear", erasing from aural memory the composer's entire output pre-and-post 1920, would surely strike such a listener as revolutionary & sui generis, though its restrained spirit & formal balance are essentially neo-classical.

The same wouldn't apply to the 'Anachronistic' Pulcinella, written a couple of years later than SOWI, which cavorts around in baroque formal dress & pastiches Italian music of the period. In my researches I was intrigued to find that Richard Taruskin identifies Mavra as the fulcrum around which Stravinsky's neo-classical oeuvre pivots, though Stephen Walsh is less-than-convinced. I found useful overviews to supplement my patchy knowledge here, BTW:

https://commons.lib.jmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1103&context=diss201019

https://timbenjamin.com/Stravinsky_Neoclassical.pdf

[Bryn]

I think so, Ed, though in the case of Stravinsky, the situation is somewhat confusing in that his compositional trajectory towards neo-classicism after the Russian period ending in 1917 with Les Noces can't be conveniently mapped chronologically or in terms of 'Anachronistic' vs 'Neoclassical'. The seminal & sublime Symphonies of Wind Instruments (1920), for instance, were one able to hear it with a completely "innocent ear", erasing from aural memory the composer's entire output pre-and-post 1920, would surely strike such a listener as revolutionary & sui generis, though its restrained spirit & formal balance are essentially neo-classical.

The same wouldn't apply to the 'Anachronistic' Pulcinella, written a couple of years later than SOWI, which cavorts around in baroque formal dress & pastiches Italian music of the period. In my researches I was intrigued to find that Richard Taruskin identifies Mavra as the fulcrum around which Stravinsky's neo-classical oeuvre pivots, though Stephen Walsh is less-than-convinced. I found useful overviews to supplement my patchy knowledge here, BTW:

https://commons.lib.jmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1103&context=diss201019

https://timbenjamin.com/Stravinsky_Neoclassical.pdf

Such speculation does seem me to belong to the realm of "dancing about architecture", a quote of highly contested origins which I first encountered when Nigel Osborne cited it when introducing his own Sinfonia of 1982.

[verismissimo]

Such speculation does seem me to belong to the realm of "dancing about architecture", a quote of highly contested origins which I first encountered when Nigel Osborne cited it when introducing his own Sinfonia of 1982.

Or the naming of buckets. :)

[edashtav]

Such speculation does seem me to belong to the realm of "dancing about architecture", a quote of highly contested origins which I first encountered when Nigel Osborne cited it when introducing his own Sinfonia of 1982.

Oooh, Nigel Osborne: one of our great British polymaths!

[edashtav]

Or the naming of buckets. :)

Haha, I'm wondering whether I'm reaching for a reductionist bucket : "neo" as Stravinsky's neoclassicism broadens to include neoromanticism (Le Baiser de la Fée)