Bal 8.02.20/13.6.20 - Mozart: Symphony no. 39 in E flat K.543

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

One highly influential one, though - and as Kenyon said, others tread in his footsteps! It's the kind of thing to appeal to arch-romantics, I suppose, and pretty harmless as these things go.

I think of it as like believing horoscopes, words painted on the side of a bus or tabloid headlines. There isn't a shred of evidence for the idea.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I suppose the ‘one vast symphony or oratorio’ idea has grown up because they were composed in a short concentrated burst , were the final symphonic statement of a master of the genre, and complement each other in a way symphonic movements do with the G minor an intensely emotional , anguished centre to two contrasting outer works . But that’s really as far as you can go. There’s no evidence it was conceived as a triptych and I think three consecutive performances would be slightly too much of a (very) good thing.

[Bryn]

I suppose the ‘one vast symphony or oratorio’ idea has grown up because they were composed in a short concentrated burst , were the final symphonic statement of a master of the genre, and complement each other in a way symphonic movements do with the G minor an intensely emotional , anguished centre to two contrasting outer works . But that’s really as far as you can go. There’s no evidence it was conceived as a triptych and I think three consecutive performances would be slightly too much of a (very) good thing.

And which version of the Great G minor would be the more apposite, even if such an integral performance had been the composer's intention? I have nothing against them being performed as an integral sequence but think it just an interesting experiment with no 'authentic' historical rationale behind it. A bit like the way Rattle likes to run second Viennese School orchestral works together.

[ardcarp]

My quibble is with Minuets.

Minuet, (from French menu, “small”), elegant couple dance that dominated aristocratic European ballrooms, especially in France and England, from about 1650 to about 1750. Reputedly derived from the French folk dance branle de Poitou, the court minuet used smaller steps and became slower and increasingly etiquette-laden and spectacular. It was especially popular at the court of Louis XIV of France. Dancers, in the order of their social position, often performed versions with especially choreographed figures, or floor patterns, and prefaced the dance with stylized bows and curtsies to partners and spectators. The basic floor pattern outlined by the dancers was at first a figure 8 and, later, the letter Z. Musically, the minuet is in moderate triple time (as 3/4 or 3/8) with two sections: minuet and trio (actually a second minuet, originally for three instruments; it derives from the ballroom practice of alternating two minuets). Each consists of two repeated phrases (AA–BB), but the repetition may be varied (AA′–BB′). The overall form is minuet–trio–minuet. The minuet frequently appears in 18th-century suites (groups of dance pieces in the same key), and in Mozart’s opera Don Giovanni onstage musicians play a minuet at the close of the first act.

The question is whether Mozart saw it as a courtly dance (rather than an athletic feat) or whether it had already just become a word for the third movement of a symphony. I firmly believe the former. Beethoven had yet to embrace the Scherzo.

But who am I to quibble?

[Tony Halstead]

My quibble is with Minuets.

Minuet, (from French menu, “small”), elegant couple dance that dominated aristocratic European ballrooms, especially in France and England, from about 1650 to about 1750. Reputedly derived from the French folk dance branle de Poitou, the court minuet used smaller steps and became slower and increasingly etiquette-laden and spectacular. It was especially popular at the court of Louis XIV of France. Dancers, in the order of their social position, often performed versions with especially choreographed figures, or floor patterns, and prefaced the dance with stylized bows and curtsies to partners and spectators. The basic floor pattern outlined by the dancers was at first a figure 8 and, later, the letter Z. Musically, the minuet is in moderate triple time (as 3/4 or 3/8) with two sections: minuet and trio (actually a second minuet, originally for three instruments; it derives from the ballroom practice of alternating two minuets). Each consists of two repeated phrases (AA–BB), but the repetition may be varied (AA′–BB′). The overall form is minuet–trio–minuet. The minuet frequently appears in 18th-century suites (groups of dance pieces in the same key), and in Mozart’s opera Don Giovanni onstage musicians play a minuet at the close of the first act.

The question is whether Mozart saw it as a courtly dance (rather than an athletic feat) or whether it had already just become a word for the third movement of a symphony. I firmly believe the former. Beethoven had yet to embrace the Scherzo.

But who am I to quibble?

I am firmly on the side of a courtly dance rather than, as you nicely put it, an 'athletic feat'! It is perfectly possible to have a 'feel' of one-in-a-bar without being as absurdly, horribly fast as some of the examples today.

[edashtav]

Excellent BaL from Nick Kenyon, as expected - full of practical sense and clear examples to support his expert opinions. Very interesting to hear that he has absolutely no truck with the fashionable and tendentious notion that the last three symphonies make some sort of gigantic "trilogy", as if Mozart was an avatar for Wagner.

I don't suppose that many of us here would quibble too much with his final choices, of Mackerras/SCO and Jacobs. BaL's reputation (temporarily) restored this morning!

It was good that Nick Kenyon was firmly in the driving seat.
Just one thought, culled from Erich Leinsdorf's book 'On music', recommended to me by Ferney. "the final movement of the […] Eb has an underlying idea that demands a somewhat heavy-footed allegro and not the usual, driven virtuoso brio of the simpler finales of #35 and #36."
EL backs that with the tempi indications across the finales #35, #36, #38, #39, #40, and #41

PRESTO,PRESTO,PRESTO, ALLEGRO, ALLEGRO ASSAI, ALLEGRO MOLTO.

Discuss!

[Pulcinella]

I am firmly on the side of a courtly dance rather than, as you nicely put it, an 'athletic feat'! It is perfectly possible to have a 'feel' of one-in-a-bar without being as absurdly, horribly fast as some of the examples today.

You'd need athletic feet too, it would appear.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I am firmly on the side of a courtly dance rather than, as you nicely put it, an 'athletic feat'! It is perfectly possible to have a 'feel' of one-in-a-bar without being as absurdly, horribly fast as some of the examples today.

The Menuetto tempo indication in the HC Robbins Landon Barenreiter edition is Allegretto which for me isn’t a whole lot faster than the preceding Andante Con Moto. The slowed up Trio in one of the examples played (can’t remember which one ) struck me as a good tempo for a clarinet player to show what he/she can do..l

[Ein Heldenleben]

It was good that Nick Kenyon was firmly in the driving seat.
Just one thought, culled from Erich Leinsdorf's book 'On music', recommended to me by Ferney. "the final movement of the […] Eb has an underlying idea that demands a somewhat heavy-footed allegro and not the usual, driven virtuoso brio of the simpler finales of #35 and #36."
EL backs that with the tempi indications across the finales #35, #36, #38, #39, #40, and #41

PRESTO,PRESTO,PRESTO, ALLEGRO, ALLEGRO ASSAI, ALLEGRO MOLTO.

Discuss!

A slower tempo would perhaps make the finale opening Violin theme that I mentioned in an earlier post with it’s tricky combinations of slurs and staccatos more playable . I would not pick an argument with Erich Leinsdorf on Mozart string playing...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

My ideal Mozart 39 was a live performance in a BBC Northern Orchestra Midday Prom broadcast that I attended in Manchester Town Hall in the 1960s, conducted by the late Bryden Thomson. It had energy, poise, musical balance (- everything except clean air, as the orchestral players smoked heavily throughout the interval).

A pity that performance isn't available.

[Lordgeous]

Just attempted to listen to Record Review (imac) and it suddenly says I need Flash Player to play this. Never had this problem before. Downloaded Flash player but still get the message. Anyone else had this problem on a Mac? Sorry to interrupt thread guys! PS earlier episodes play OK!

[edashtav]

A slower tempo would perhaps make the finale opening Violin theme that I mentioned in an earlier post with it’s tricky combinations of slurs and staccatos more playable . I would not pick an argument with Erich Leinsdorf on Mozart string playing...

I agree, Heldenleben.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Just attempted to listen to Record Review (imac) and it suddenly says I need Flash Player to play this. Never had this problem before. Downloaded Flash player but still get the message. Anyone else had this problem on a Mac? Sorry to interrupt thread guys! PS earlier episodes play OK!

Yes I’ve had this problem on my MacBook Air with BBC iPlayer -I had to download Silverlight (I think) to get it to work.

[LMcD]

My ideal Mozart 39 was a live performance in a BBC Northern Orchestra Midday Prom broadcast that I attended in Manchester Town Hall in the 1960s, conducted by the late Bryden Thomson. It had energy, poise, musical balance (- everything except clean air, as the orchestral players smoked heavily throughout the interval).

A pity that performance isn't available.

Might it have been the concert broadcast on 11/10/1972, in which the other work was Franck's Symphonic Variations? That's the only midday Mozart 39th on the BBC Genome with the forces you mention.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Might it have been the concert broadcast on 11/10/1972, in which the other work was Franck's Symphonic Variations? That's the only midday Mozart 39th on the BBC Genome with the forces you mention.

Well, that date was a Wednesday, whereas the Midday Proms at the Town Hall were always on a Friday. Also, I was doing my teaching practice in Stafford at that time, so it's a bit of a puzzle.