Bal 8.02.20/13.6.20 - Mozart: Symphony no. 39 in E flat K.543

[ardcarp]

Yes I’ve had this problem on my MacBook Air with BBC iPlayer -I had to download Silverlight (I think) to get it to work.

Another digression. I keep an old Iphone 4 (sans SIM, just using Wifi) at our bedside, on which to listen to things. It won't update beyond IOS 9. It used to do BBC iPlayer but has now stopped doing 'Sounds'. It goes to the Sounds page but the play arrow never appears. It will do downloads however.

It's no great problem as I can always use my totally up-to-date iPhone 5SE. However, I'd be interested to know the reason.

[LMcD]

Well, that date was a Wednesday, whereas the Midday Proms at the Town Hall were always on a Friday. Also, I was doing my teaching practice in Stafford at that time, so it's a bit of a puzzle.

There are 2 other Bryden Thomson/Mozart 39 combinations on BBC Genome with other starting times....

[DracoM]

Excellent BaL from Nick Kenyon, as expected - full of practical sense and clear examples to support his expert opinions. Very interesting to hear that he has absolutely no truck with the fashionable and tendentious notion that the last three symphonies make some sort of gigantic "trilogy", as if Mozart was an avatar for Wagner.

I don't suppose that many of us here would quibble too much with his final choices, of Mackerras/SCO and Jacobs. BaL's reputation (temporarily) restored this morning!

Yup. Sir N took no truck from the Presiding God.

[Lordgeous]

Yes I’ve had this problem on my MacBook Air with BBC iPlayer -I had to download Silverlight (I think) to get it to work.

Ah, suddenly working again!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Another digression. I keep an old Iphone 4 (sans SIM, just using Wifi) at our bedside, on which to listen to things. It won't update beyond IOS 9. It used to do BBC iPlayer but has now stopped doing 'Sounds'. It goes to the Sounds page but the play arrow never appears. It will do downloads however.

It's no great problem as I can always use my totally up-to-date iPhone 5SE. However, I'd be interested to know the reason.

We had the same problem with BBC sounds and an iPhone 4 . We cleared as much memory as possible , downloaded iOS 9 (took a long time ) and now the app works ok

[johnb]

My ideal Mozart 39 was a live performance in a BBC Northern Orchestra Midday Prom broadcast that I attended in Manchester Town Hall in the 1960s, conducted by the late Bryden Thomson. It had energy, poise, musical balance (- everything except clean air, as the orchestral players smoked heavily throughout the interval).

A pity that performance isn't available.

Gosh, that brings back a memory. The only time I went to a concert in Manchester Town Hall was when I was in the 6th form at the then Eccles Grammar School. The English master (a certain John Law) whisked a few of us off in his car during the lunch break to hear George Hurst conducting the BBC Northern in Tchaikovsky 5 there.

(Apologies for going off topic.)

[jayne lee wilson]

No indeed! A well though out BaL and final decision.

I'm not sure that the idea of 39-41 being a gigantic trilogy is "fashionable" - more the musings of one man.

Indeed, but far more than musings, let alone "fashionable" or "tendentious".... such a shame those who haven't read the artist's arguments and references are so ready to trivialise them in this way. They are the result of long and deep considerations, not least regarding the thematic and motivic links between the three works, based on independent research by Peter Gulke going back to the 1990s.
At least try to study what he has to say, and take the ideas seriously before your rejection. Those who are so ready to describe various interpretational concepts or styles as egocentric or arrogant or licentious are often guilty of the very same thing in their dismissal. This is a Performance Art - there has to be an open space for imagination and renewal.

You can easily read the very extensive notes to the CMW/Harnoncourt recording on Qobuz etc. Whatever you feel about the concept itself, they are very insightful about the music, and can only sharpen your listening.

I remain uncertain myself, about the concept of the Oratorium, but I must say the Last Three Symphonies work very well for me as a listening sequence, usually of course with an interval somewhere.... which isn't far from the concept itself.
"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."


***
Sounds like a well-balanced survey from NH.... not mad keen on the later Mackerras (which I bought on its release), tended to prefer the Prague set with those acoustically-live Telarc sonics, but respect to both of course. I'll revisit the Jacobs later & try to fit the BaL in too..

[LMcD]

There are 2 other Bryden Thomson/Mozart 39 combinations on BBC Genome with other starting times....

Actually, there are 3. From the 1960s:
Tuesday September 23rd 1969 at 9.45 (presumably p.m.). The other works were the Bruch Violin Concerto No. 1 and Stravinsky's Firebird.
Sunday December 28th 1969 at 7.00 p.m. The other works were the Flying Dutchman Overture and Tchaikowsky's Theme and Variations (Suite No. 3)/
Another concert featuring the same orchestra and conductor was broadcast in 1973.

[gradus]

Indeed, but far more than musings, let alone "fashionable" or "tendentious".... such a shame those who haven't read the artist's arguments and references are so ready to trivialise them in this way. They are the result of long and deep considerations, not least regarding the thematic and motivic links between the three works, based on independent research by Peter Gulke going back to the 1990s.
At least try to study what he has to say, and take the ideas seriously before your rejection. Those who are so ready to describe various interpretational concepts or styles as egocentric or arrogant or licentious are often guilty of the very same thing in their dismissal. This is a Performance Art - there has to be an open space for imagination and renewal.

You can easily read the very extensive notes to the CMW/Harnoncourt recording on Qobuz etc. Whatever you feel about the concept itself, they are very insightful about the music, and can only sharpen your listening.

I remain uncertain myself, about the concept of the Oratorium, but I must say the Last Three Symphonies work very well for me as a listening sequence, usually of course with an interval somewhere.... which isn't far from the concept itself.
"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."

Sounds like a well-balanced survey from NH.... not mad keen on the later Mackerras (which I bought on its release), tended to prefer the Prague set with those acoustically-live Telarc sonics, but respect to both of course. I'll revisit the Jacobs later & try to fit the BaL in too..[/FONT]

Perhaps I'm alone but I prefer to rely on how music strikes me. I appreciate that others do not and enjoy pontificating about the finer points of a performance and what the performer/composer actually intended although managing to overlook communicating his actual innermost thoughts to the rest of us, except of course through the composition itself.
My loss probably but I've never really enjoyed talking about music beyond the Anthony Hopkins level. It takes all sorts...

[cloughie]

My ideal Mozart 39 was a live performance in a BBC Northern Orchestra Midday Prom broadcast that I attended in Manchester Town Hall in the 1960s, conducted by the late Bryden Thomson. It had energy, poise, musical balance (- everything except clean air, as the orchestral players smoked heavily throughout the interval).

A pity that performance isn't available.

It’s a pity that so many of Bryden’s BBC radio recordings are not available - he just brought music to life - he did a great Job, and there was a Dvorak Symphony cycle in the 80s which was really good. I saw him conduct Rach S2 with the CBSO at Birmingham Town Hall - as good as any I’ve heard!

[visualnickmos]

Perhaps I'm alone but I prefer to rely on how music strikes me. I appreciate that others do not and enjoy pontificating about the finer points of a performance and what the performer/composer actually intended although managing to overlook communicating his actual innermost thoughts to the rest of us, except of course through the composition itself. My loss probably but I've never really enjoyed talking about music beyond the Anthony Hopkins level. It takes all sorts...

You're definitely NOT alone, on this. When music becomes an exercise in theorising at the expense of the 'rush' of the sheer feeling of how the music strikes one, I switch off.

[jayne lee wilson]

Excellent BaL survey, where I was pleased to note Kenyon’s preference for Chamber Orchestras (ancien or moderne) and his very open approach to freely interventionist or more strictly measured readings. He’s ready to enjoy both done well, just as I’ve been appealing for on here for some time, usually to a susurrus of protests. How I loved his remark about Jacobs, that his 39th had “added spice and imagination”.
Well, exactly……(so does Tognetti in a very different way…). So its OK as long as Mr. Kenyon says it is, right?

I note his liking for a quick minuet too, and his general admiration for Harnoncourt - all very agreeable to me, obviously. Nor was he needlessly dismissive of the case for a conceptual trilogy, an Oratorium etc… I think he simply decided to leave it aside for this discussion.

Of course I was sorry not to hear his views on Bruggen, but perhaps he felt that with Harnoncourt, Jacobs and Immerseel, he’d covered that angle. But there’s another striking reason why it would have been better to include the later Bruggen especially. Why? Because Jacobs' sudden reduction of the dynamic in the final phrase of the finale is very similar to Bruggen’s own diminuendo conclusion, as I reported above in #95. What a shame this connection wasn’t made, as (to say the least) it can hardly be a frequent feature in performances of this work. I never came across it elsewhere (yet…).
It is all about close listening isn’t it? A principle of such a survey, surely, and of my own comments.

(No-one else seems to have noted this similarity, more concerned to complain about what they call “theorising”…or “musing”…… Of course you could describe some of my own comments, or Harnoncourt’s (and others’) development of the trilogy idea that way.
But what on earth is wrong with thinking about what we hear….the mystery of how certain masterworks came into existence, and why… the effect they have on humanity - yes, that “rush of sheer feeling” - for so many centuries….you can have both, you know…!)

That conclusion to No.39, in Jacobs and late Bruggen, show great conducting minds feeling the music alike, in the sheer moment, and I can only emphasise again how wonderful the later Bruggen is: almost a blend of the characteristics Kenyon so admired in Mackerras and Harnoncourt, but in his own so distinctive way…

(Off to hear Jacobs again now….I recall his 38th doing well too, when TS did the BaL on it in IIRC 12/2017…)

***

Jacobs gives us a remarkable 39th, more challenging and confrontational than I'd recalled, especially in the andante, whose darker outbursts are startling - threatening, even.
Among many subtle and imaginative touches of phrase, rubato and micro-dynamics (always alive, rising and falling with the musical ebb and flow), the rhythmic schwung and buoyancy, the physically emphatic brass, that finale detail I noted above goes further: remember how Jacobs reduces the level for the final phrase at the very end? Well, when the conclusion is played for the first time (around 5'30) this is reversed, with the last phrase a good deal louder. If that isn't micro-management nothing is, and how wonderfully thought-through in its creativity.

[silvestrione]

Excellent BaL survey, where I was pleased to note Kenyon’s preference for Chamber Orchestras (ancien or moderne) and his very open approach to freely interventionist or more strictly measured readings. He’s ready to enjoy both done well, just as I’ve been appealing for on here for some time, usually to a susurrus of protests. How I loved his remark about Jacobs, that his 39th had “added spice and imagination”.
Well, exactly……(so does Tognetti in a very different way…). So its OK as long as Mr. Kenyon says it is, right?

I note his liking for a quick minuet too, and his general admiration for Harnoncourt - all very agreeable to me, obviously. Nor was he needlessly dismissive of the case for a conceptual trilogy, an Oratorium etc… I think he simply decided to leave it aside for this discussion.

Of course I was sorry not to hear his views on Bruggen, but perhaps he felt that with Harnoncourt, Jacobs and Immerseel, he’d covered that angle. But there’s another striking reason why it would have been better to include the later Bruggen especially. Why? Because Jacobs' sudden reduction of the dynamic in the final phrase of the finale is very similar to Bruggen’s own diminuendo conclusion, as I reported above in #95. What a shame this connection wasn’t made, as (to say the least) it can hardly be a frequent feature in performances of this work. I never came across it elsewhere (yet…).
It is all about close listening isn’t it? A principle of such a survey, surely, and of my own comments.

(No-one else seems to have noted this similarity, more concerned to complain about what they call “theorising”…or “musing”…… Of course you could describe some of my own comments, or Harnoncourt’s (and others’) development of the trilogy idea that way.
But what on earth is wrong with thinking about what we hear….the mystery of how certain masterworks came into existence, and why… the effect they have on humanity - yes, that “rush of sheer feeling” - for so many centuries….you can have both, you know…!)

That conclusion to No.39, in Jacobs and late Bruggen, show great conducting minds feeling the music alike, in the sheer moment, and I can only emphasise again how wonderful the later Bruggen is: almost a blend of the characteristics Kenyon so admired in Mackerras and Harnoncourt, but in his own so distinctive way…

(Off to hear Jacobs again now….I recall his 38th doing well too, when TS did the BaL on it in IIRC 12/2017…)

***

Jacobs gives us a remarkable 39th, more challenging and confrontational than I'd recalled, especially in the andante, whose darker outbursts are startling - threatening, even.
Among many subtle and imaginative touches of phrase, rubato and micro-dynamics (always alive, rising and falling with the musical ebb and flow), the rhythmic schwung and buoyancy, the physically emphatic brass, that finale detail I noted above goes further: remember how Jacobs reduces the level for the final phrase at the very end? Well, when the conclusion is played for the first time (around 5'30) this is reversed, with the last phrase a good deal louder. If that isn't micro-management nothing is, and how wonderfully thought-through in its creativity.

I'd just like to say, I always look forward to your posts, and read them carefully. Only rarely disagree! I will certainly watch out for the Bruggen...

[Barbirollians]

I am afraid Mr McGregor's superfluous interruptions remained a blight on this BAL.

[Nick Armstrong]

I am firmly on the side of a courtly dance rather than, as you nicely put it, an 'athletic feat'! It is perfectly possible to have a 'feel' of one-in-a-bar without being as absurdly, horribly fast as some of the examples today.

I couldn’t agree more.

Also agree this was a decent BaL (though why the need for AMcG, and the time wasting and phoney questions, still defeats me, other than slavish adherence to a misguided managerial diktat).

I particularly like the way NK signposts things to listen out for before the extract is played, rather than after as many do (which leads to annoying rewinds... or which is pointless if not listening on catch-up)