BaL 18.01.20 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 1 in C, Op.21

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes I prefer basses at the back as per the VPO New Years Concert ( and their standard Musikverein layout? ) . The big problem is the loss of woodwind detail with a large string section and overloud brass (esp those scores with trombones) . The best orchestral balance I find is in the amphitheater or slips at Covent Garden though I suspect this is partly because of a reduced string section and the brass under the stage overhang . The worst is the Barbican where , if you are in the balcony , the woodwind are all but inaudible in a romantic symphony. As the reviewer pointed out today the woods in Beethoven 1 are absolutely vital especially and unusually oboe and bassoon. Let’s hear it for the double reeds...

...Part of the reason for my strong preference for smaller/reduced forces and/or a lighter, more transparent sound in Beethoven, whether Chamber Orchestra, HIPPs-ancien or HIPPS-moderne, as found in....Fischer, Harnoncourt and to some extent Chailly who varies the forces he employs.

[Petrushka]

Yes I prefer basses at the back as per the VPO New Years Concert ( and their standard Musikverein layout? ) . The big problem is the loss of woodwind detail with a large string section and overloud brass (esp those scores with trombones) . The best orchestral balance I find is in the amphitheater or slips at Covent Garden though I suspect this is partly because of a reduced string section and the brass under the stage overhang . The worst is the Barbican where , if you are in the balcony , the woodwind are all but inaudible in a romantic symphony. As the reviewer pointed out today the woods in Beethoven 1 are absolutely vital especially and unusually oboe and bassoon. Let’s hear it for the double reeds...

I'm not by any means a Norrington fan, but his LCP performance of the Beethoven 1 is a revelation in this respect. I think it was Richard Osborne in his original Gramophone review who pointed out that an oboe passage in the finale is never heard but it's there in Norrington's account.

[Goon525]

Best BaL for a long time. I may be biased as I know RW slightly. (Incidentally, my channel are not reversed, and I’m pretty sure it was RW on the left.) Jayne’s recommendation of the Fischer set has made me want to listen to it for ages, but now she’s got RW on board too, it’s clearly moved up to top of ‘to be listened to soon’ list.

I’m a fan of divided violins, and even if - as some here argue - it can be difficult to assess in the concert hall, I think it’s a big advantage when listening at home.

[gurnemanz]

Best BaL for a long time. I may be biased as I know RW.

Agree there. Played it as a nightcap on Spotify after enjoying watching Palace thwart Man City (again) on Match of the Day. It came across beautifully in crystal clear sound with lovely detail and involving sprightliness and wit.

I don't know RW (I'd be happy to make his acquaintance) but usually find his judgement can be trusted. Also gets my vote as a great Lieder fan and expert.

[Keraulophone]

Wasn’t it a lovely movement when, after once excerpt, Mr Wigmore went on to immediately introduce the next one!

Almost like old times...

[Nick Armstrong]

Wasn’t it a lovely movement when, after once excerpt, Mr Wigmore went on to immediately introduce the next one!

Yes, one of the better BALs of recent times - I agree with previous comments about the economy and authority of RW’s manner, a lot conveyed in the short time available, and useful pointers given as to what to listen out for in the selected extracts. I got a lot out of this. Not least that I’d never heard (/of) the Fischer / Danish CO set, and this was a rare example of an eventual ‘winner’ being the one I most wanted to investigate. Moved to the head of my Qobuz list... (I see it’s a complete symphony set: my starting position is that the performance approach may work best with No 1 and with decreasing success as the symphonies ‘grow’ but we shall see)

[jayne lee wilson]

On the Fischer Cycle.....

"“A pretty daring alternative viewpoint…..If fearless mavericks of yore such as Mengelberg, Stokowski, Furtwangler and others could push the interpretative boat out, why not Adam Fischer?” RC in G., 12/19. Excellent, very detailed review.

I can only concur, and the sound is top class.
Cowan had few reservations, except that certain diehard traditionalists might best keep away.....but he still encouraged even them to be brave....!
Anyway, there it is on Qobuz etc., so why not just plunge in and keep going.....

On No.1:"In the fully fired up finale those spatially divided violin desks convince you that Beethoven's antiphonal scoring was aimed with a purpose. It's madness not to separate them."

[Nick Armstrong]

On the Fischer Cycle.....

"“A pretty daring alternative viewpoint…..If fearless mavericks of yore such as Mengelberg, Stokowski, Furtwangler and others could out the interpretative boat out, why not Adam Fischer?” RC in G., 12/19. Excellent, very detailed review.

I can only concur, and the sound is top class.
Cowan had few reservations, except that certain diehard traditionalists might best keep away.....but he still encouraged even them to be brave....!
Anyway, there it is on Qobuz etc., so why not just plunge in and keep going.....

On No.1:"In the fully fired up finale those spatially divided violin desks convince you that Beethoven's antiphonal scoring was aimed with a purpose. It's madness not to separate them."

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I would argue that just because a composer sometimes includes musical interplay between the two groups of violins, it doesn't necessarily follow (s)he's requiring antiphonal effects. If that were the case, string quartet players might not sit so closely together. The effects of such counterpoint are still evident in mono recordings.

[Bryn]

I would argue that just because a composer sometimes includes musical interplay between the two groups of violins, it doesn't necessarily follow (s)he's requiring antiphonal effects. If that were the case, string quartet players might not sit so closely together. The effects of such counterpoint are still evident in mono recordings.

https://johncage.org/pp/John-Cage-Work-Detail.cfm?work_ID=208

That said, I have attended a good few string quartet performances where first and second violin were placed left and right, presumably to bring out the antiphonal qualities of some compositions. See https://www.violinist.com/discussion/archive/26393/ for instance.

[pastoralguy]

[BBMmk2]

I have the Harnoncourt. I’m glad about that. Also I heard the Danish people and didn’t do it for me at all.

[verismissimo]

I enjoyed this BAL greatly, as others did. And I was happy with Wigmore's choices, given the extracts played.

However, I didn't much care for his blanket dismissal of trad conductors' performances (aside from Toscanini in 1937) as though the fact that fashions have changed renders them obsolete. Fashions will change again! Who can say how?

[visualnickmos]

I have the Harnoncourt. I’m glad about that. Also I heard the Danish people and didn’t do it for me at all.

The 'Danish people' gave me the feeling that it might be just that bit too idiosyncratic. I also would say it didn't do it for me. When Mr Wigmore said it made him smile - well, that really put the mockers on it! I don't think I want my Beethoven to make me smile, any more than I'd want my Mahler to induce a fit of the giggles....

He was rather dismissive of some traditional and excellent recordings.

Harnoncourt is a fine set, and Norrington's set has grown on me over the years, to the point where I find it one of my top-drawer sets.

[jayne lee wilson]

You don't want Beethoven to make you smile....? Not even the slow movements of 2 and 4, the euphoric country walk, the birds calling and the brook flowing, the final beatification, in No.6? All those giggle-and-guffaw-inducing jokes in No.8 ?(the last bars of the 1st movement...)

Speechless and mystified here......

BTW which Norrington? Admire both but I usually find SWR a significant advance on LCP....