BaL 18.01.20 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 1 in C, Op.21

[Keraulophone]

Alan Davey is certainly not impervious to the general unease about "Building a Library" having become a pale shadow of its former self.

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Good.

AMcG should not be allowed so much say on how BaL is produced because “he likes talking”. He is the presenter - what is RR’s producer for? He talks a great deal throughout the rest of the programme, so why can’t he be prevented from doing so from 9.30 till c.10.15?

Most of us are decidedly not ”children”!

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[Bryn]

I've said this before, but I think the left-right thing is often over-egged. It's barely discernible in the concert, unless you're sitting right at the front (or conducting). On recordings, it's more obvious when close multi-miking is being used.

I have had no problem discerning the antiphonal qualities, when employed, from up in the gallery at the RAH.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Is that really the case, Alpie (just asking, not wishing to be contrary)?
I would have thought that it had an effect on the aural/tonal spectrum throughout the hall.

I have tried to "notice the difference" in concert halls, as different orchestras have different formations. As a result of my limited research, it would appear that the omnidirectional sound projection of players generally overrides the locations of individual groups of instrumentalists.

[Pulcinella]

I have had no problem discerning the antiphonal qualities, when employed, from up in the gallery at the RAH.

I have tried to "notice the difference" in concert halls, as different orchestras have different formations. As a result of my limited research, it would appear that the omnidirectional sound projection of players generally overrides the locations of individual groups of instrumentalists.

or ?
Interesting! It's been a long time since I've been to a concert with separated violins (indeed so long that I can't remember where or when!).
Different projection issues from the pit in the theatre tonight, I suspect, at Opera North's Streetscene (Weill) that I'm off to see.

[Barbirollians]

or ?
Interesting! It's been a long time since I've been to a concert with separated violins (indeed so long that I can't remember where or when or indeed whenever!).
Different projection issues from the pit in the theatre tonight, I suspect, at Opera North's Streetscene (Weill) that I'm off to see.

I don’t like Andrew McGregor talking in BAL !

[Pulcinella]

I don’t like Andrew McGregor talking in BAL !

I don't listen that closely: are he and the guest reviewer separated left and right?

[Keraulophone]

I've said this before, but I think the left-right thing is often over-egged. It's barely discernible in the concert, unless you're sitting right at the front (or conducting). On recordings, it's more obvious when close multi-miking is being used.

I agree.

The stereo image of divided violins 1 and 2 used to sound more separated on early stereo recordings (mid-late 1950s - early ‘60s) especially in stereo mixes of popular music back in the days when most records sold were monaural. The Beatles’ albums whose left and right channels were often discrete with little or no genuine stereo effect as in a modern orchestral recording. The performers only approved the mono version, the stereo mix being left to the producer (George Martin).

The Boult Elgar Symphonies on Lyrita are marvellous performances despite, or allegedly because of, the annoyance caused by the producer overruling Sir Adrian and seating violins 1 and 2 of the LPO together on the left. These recordings are often preferred to his final EMI versions (though not to the live ones).

[ardcarp]

The original idea of ‘stereo’ was to reproduce the input of two mikes through two speaker (or headphone) channels. This mimes very effectively our ‘ natural’ perception of sound by two ears and two nerve pathways. This is immediately obvious if one switches on and off the stereo function on one’s equipment. It was not intended to be like a ‘dec and can ‘ of a cathedral choir. I agree stereo separation is often overdone.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I don't listen that closely: are he and the guest reviewer separated left and right?

Today he was slightly left , reviewer slightly right

[HighlandDougie]

I have tried to "notice the difference" in concert halls, as different orchestras have different formations. As a result of my limited research, it would appear that the omnidirectional sound projection of players generally overrides the locations of individual groups of instrumentalists.

Interesting point. I think that it depends on the concert hall. The Barbican is probably the exception to the rule but careful placing of members of the orchestra by certain conductors really helps to avoid the general muddiness one can experience in that hall. Both LSO concerts I've been to recently (François-Xavier Roth just before Christmas; Elgar's Cello Concerto and Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin: Simon Rattle last Wednesday in Berg's Seven Early Songs and Beethoven's 7th) had divided strings which was both clearly aurally noticeable from a centre seat and musically effective, particularly in the Bartok.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

or ?
Interesting! It's been a long time since I've been to a concert with separated violins (indeed so long that I can't remember where or when!).
Different projection issues from the pit in the theatre tonight, I suspect, at Opera North's Streetscene (Weill) that I'm off to see.

Mark Elder separates the violins, but some guest conductors of the Hallé revert to all violins on the left.

[Bryn]

Re orchestral disposition, the first piece played in the Maida Vale recording I attended on Thursday night, Erika Fox's Osen Shomaat had a very inventive layout for the orchestra, two double bases, one placed each side of the conductor, the winds ranged behind them, with the violins around the periphery of the ensemble. Worth listening out for when it eventually gets broadcast on The New Music Show (no date yet announced). Ilan Volkov was conducting and when I mentioned to John Tilbury that I had attended and was much taken with Osen Shomaat he responded that he's known Erika since they were students at the RCM, back in 1954. Coincidence upon coincidence; turned out Ilan Volkov was also at John Tilbury's performance of Cornelius Cardew's The Tiger's Mind, Day Piece at Cafe OTO on Tuesday, which I recorded.

[jayne lee wilson]

I've said this before, but I think the left-right thing is often over-egged. It's barely discernible in the concert, unless you're sitting right at the front (or conducting). On recordings, it's more obvious when close multi-miking is being used.

On recordings (or Prom webcasts etc) I usually find it easy to hear the difference, even if the balance is mid hall and natural (BIS, CPO etc....the list of examples could be quite long...). I almost always prefer the division.
With Beethoven I feel it makes a significant difference in many passages (both physical and expressive i.e. musically meaningful), the finale of No.7 being only the most famous example. If the violins are all to the left, there's something vital missing from the musical dialogue there, as they throw the figures wildly across the stage through the climactic crescendi, until the whole orchestra roars out as one......
Given the usual placing of the brass & wind, I always find the balance of textural weight much better with divided violins, especially as this often puts basses centre-left, cellos centre-right etc., or ranges lower strings across the rear of the band. Its about the whole orchestral layout really.

Russian Symphony Orchestras often use a divided layout as standard, with the Db's well to the left/rear.

Glad to see two of my aforementioned favourites (Adam Fischer, Harnoncourt) in the top three! I had a feeling the excellent RW would be uptodate with one of the latest releases, the DCO/Fischer is a great and refreshing achievement...... I'll try to fit the Bal itself in later...

[Alison]

Wasn’t it a lovely movement when, after once excerpt, Mr Wigmore went on to immediately introduce the next one!

[Ein Heldenleben]

On recordings (or Prom webcasts etc) I usually find it easy to hear the difference, even if the balance is mid hall and natural (BIS, CPO etc....the list of examples could be quite long...). I almost always prefer the division.
With Beethoven I feel it makes a significant difference in many passages (both physical and expressive i.e. musically meaningful), the finale of No.7 being only the most famous example. If the violins are all to the left, there's something vital missing from the musical dialogue there, as they throw the figures wildly across the stage through the climactic crescendi, until the whole orchestra roars out as one......
Given the usual placing of the brass & wind, I always find the balance of textural weight much better with divided violins, especially as this often puts basses centre-left, cellos centre-right etc., or ranges lower strings across the rear of the band. Its about the whole orchestral layout really.

Russian Symphony Orchestras often use a divided layout as standard, with the Db's well to the left/rear.

Glad to see two of my aforementioned favourites (Adam Fischer, Harnoncourt) in the top three! I had a feeling the excellent RW would be uptodate with one of the latest releases, the DCO/Fischer is a great and refreshing achievement...... I'll try to fit the Bal itself in later...

Yes I prefer basses at the back as per the VPO New Years Concert ( and their standard Musikverein layout? ) . The big problem is the loss of woodwind detail with a large string section and overloud brass (esp those scores with trombones) . The best orchestral balance I find is in the amphitheater or slips at Covent Garden though I suspect this is partly because of a reduced string section and the brass under the stage overhang . The worst is the Barbican where , if you are in the balcony , the woodwind are all but inaudible in a romantic symphony. As the reviewer pointed out today the woods in Beethoven 1 are absolutely vital especially and unusually oboe and bassoon. Let’s hear it for the double reeds...