BaL 4.01.20 - Elgar: Enigma Variations

[Master Jacques]

Really? Can you give some recent examples? I generally don't take much interest in R4, except in the car on journeys.

Seconding LMcD, I had Tales from the Stave in mind as the kind of approachable yet adult and intelligent programme we simply don't get on Radio 3. You might like to try this 2015 episode, on Janacek's Glagolitic Mass, recorded in Prague, with Nigel Simeone as the expert guide:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06j1qv9

[richardfinegold]

Quite interesting to read the Wiki article on Pierre Monteux (who of course conducted the premiere of Rite of Spring).

Here's an extract:

In June 1958 Monteux conducted the London Symphony Orchestra (LSO) in three concerts, described by the orchestra's historian Richard Morrison as "a sensation with players, press and public alike."[130] The first concert included Elgar's Enigma Variations, in which Cardus judged Monteux to be more faithful to Elgar's conception than English conductors generally were. Cardus added, "After the performance of the 'Enigma' Variations, the large audience cheered and clapped Monteux for several minutes. This applause, moreover, broke out just before the interval. English audiences are not as a rule inclined to waste time applauding at or during an interval: they usually have other things to do."[131] Monteux considered British concertgoers "the most attentive in the world", and British music critics "the most intelligent".[132] However, a disadvantage of conducting a London orchestra was having to perform at the Festival Hall, of which he shared with Beecham and other conductors an intense dislike: "from the conductor's rostrum it is impossible to hear the violins".[132]

Monteux's later London performances were not only with the LSO. In 1960 he conducted Beecham's Royal Philharmonic Orchestra performing "feats of wizardry" in works by Beethoven, Debussy and Hindemith.[133] The LSO offered him the post of principal conductor in 1961, when he was eighty-six; he accepted, on condition that he had a contract for twenty-five years, with an option of renewal.[134] His large and varied repertoire was displayed in his LSO concerts. In addition to the French repertoire with which, to his occasional irritation, he was generally associated, he programmed Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms and Wagner, as well as later composers including Granados, Schoenberg, Scriabin, Shostakovich, Sibelius, Richard Strauss and Vaughan Williams.[135] With the LSO, Monteux gave a fiftieth anniversary performance of The Rite of Spring at the Royal Albert Hall in the presence of the composer.[136] Although the recording of the occasion reveals some lapses of ensemble and slack rhythms, it was an intense and emotional concert, and Monteux climbed up to Stravinsky's box to embrace him at the end.[125][n 13] Players believed that in his few years in charge he transformed the LSO; Neville Marriner felt that he "made them feel like an international orchestra ... He gave them extended horizons and some of his achievements with the orchestra, both at home and abroad, gave them quite a different constitution."[125]

I’m gathering that the Monteux/LSO must have won (I just started this thread today, I’m home sick with the flu). I love the material supplied by ard cap. I really enjoy all the stereo era Monteux recordings, with the LSO, Boston SO, Chicago, and Vienna (only his Westminster Beethoven 9 is a misfire, imo).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Monteux/LSO has been my only digital version

Uh? Digital in 1958?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Despite the evidence that it's not what Elgar really intended, I don't actually hate that Bernstein version ...

It probably isn't what Elgar intended, but the reviewers was presumptuous in saying it wasn't really Elgar. Of course is was really Elgar - every note, pitch, rhythms and dynamics was what Elgar's score indicated. The tempo is arguable, but not set in stone.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Q. How do find the perfect partner?
A. Sit with her/him, listening to Nimrod. If (s)he listens in complete, undisturbed silence, you’ve found the right one.

Sad, though, that you'd lose him/her forever, because, of course, s/he wouldn't want anything to do with someone who played "bleeding chunks"?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Sad, though, that you'd lose him/her forever, because, of course, s/he wouldn't want anything to do with someone who played "bleeding chunks"?

I did the test during a radio broadcast of the complete work.

[richardfinegold]

Uh? Digital in 1958?

From a CD, as opposed to extracting music from a slab of petroleum with an expensive sewing needle

[mikealdren]

I gather that 'Tales From The Stave' is well regarded by some. There are 41 episodes available on BBC Sounds.

But sadly even that has been infantilised in the latest series by a change of presenter.

[jonfan]

From a CD, as opposed to extracting music from a slab of petroleum with an expensive sewing needle

What Alpie means, I'm sure, is the original is from an analogue tape.
Can't quibble with the final result though I can't agree more with all the comments above that rates this one of the worst BAL's ever to be inflicted upon us. Where's D O'Norris when you want him? Most of the distinguished conductors didn't even warrant a mention.
The coupling I have of the Monteux is a clever one featuring early recordings of non-British conductors in British music. The other piece is Holst's Planets with the VPO on Decca, early 60's. Sounds very careful, like a college orchestra sight-reading some strange modern stuff, which it was to them!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I did the test during a radio broadcast of the complete work.

[LMcD]

But sadly even that has been infantilised in the latest series by a change of presenter.

In theory, it obviously makes sense for the BBC to try to attract younger listeners and viewers, as otherwise it will eventually end up with none . However, it may well prove difficult if not impossible to do so without alienating its present audience. I read recently that the shortening of the 10.00 p.m. news on BBC1 in order to start the 'yoof thread' at 10.35 has actually led to a reduction in the number of viewers of all ages who now tune in at that time.
What is the answer? Perhaps the BBC's problem is that it will forever be associated with the days of families happily watching 'the telly' together. A few years ago a senior BBC manager predicted that a programme that attracted 5 million viewers would be regarded as a 'hit show'. The 2nd episode of the latest 'Dracula' attracted 2.8 million on the night. As the members of those happy families increasingly go their separate ways with their different listening and watching devices, the inevitable fragmentation of the existing and potential audience for traditional broadcasters may well have already reached or even passed the point at which the latter can (re)gain the affection of the missing millions. Perhaps we might have a thread on which to discuss this problem, 'cos it ain't going away!

[Dave2002]

I actually know players who are on that recording and know exactly what they think of it! Despite being an Elgar anorak I had therefore avoided it until I heard BAL (for the first time in years) last Saturday. I started with the thought that "actually I can see the point" but,as it went on and on and on (recurring), began to be troubled - no Elgar should make you desperate to get to the end.

But I could not see the point of BAL either and it did not educate, entertain or enthuse me.

This does though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLNLvcBmoqo

The comment in the BAL that it was worth at least viewing the video version of the rehearsal was interesting. I'm going to have to add that to my to do list now. There was a clear suggestion that the orchestra disliked it intensely, so it would be interesting to see.

Re "no Elgar should make you desperate to get to the end" - in the past some Elgar made me wish I'd not even started, and I think there are some round here who would on occasion agree with me.

[Bryn]

The comment in the BAL that it was worth at least viewing the video version of the rehearsal was interesting. I'm going to have to add that to my to do list now. There was a clear suggestion that the orchestra disliked it intensely, so it would be interesting to see.

Re "no Elgar should make you desperate to get to the end" - in the past some Elgar made me wish I'd not even started, and I think there are some round here who would on occasion agree with me.

Give DoG a bad name, eh?

[Goon525]

I’ve only just got round to listening, and agree with everyone who found this a particularly superficial BaL. Partly because the excerpts were far too long (and not just the Bernstein Nimrod!) so there weren’t enough of them. Unusually, I’d also suggest an absence of modern recordings, perhaps other than Elder. I’m not for a moment suggesting that the highest recording quality should win, but this lot averaged half a century old!

Incidentally, some supporting evidence for the final choice of Monteux: the current Gramophone’s regular item ‘Classics Reconsidered’ features Monteux’s classic Daphnis et Chloe record. During the course of the debate, Mark Pullinger refers to Monteux’s Enigma as ‘my favourite account of the Enigma Variations’.

[Barbirollians]

I’ve only just got round to listening, and agree with everyone who found this a particularly superficial BaL. Partly because the excerpts were far too long (and not just the Bernstein Nimrod!) so there weren’t enough of them. Unusually, I’d also suggest an absence of modern recordings, perhaps other than Elder. I’m not for a moment suggesting that the highest recording quality should win, but this lot averaged half a century old!

Incidentally, some supporting evidence for the final choice of Monteux: the current Gramophone’s regular item ‘Classics Reconsidered’ features Monteux’s classic Daphnis et Chloe record. During the course of the debate, Mark Pullinger refers to Monteux’s Enigma as ‘my favourite account of the Enigma Variations’.

Sounds like this was a New Year nightmare - I suspect their RAJAR figures are holding up because many are still listening in but infuriated . I have given up despite having listended since my youth in the early 1980s.

MOnteux's Enigma is very fine - glad to see del Mar also did well but not so impressed to hear Boult and Barbirolli did not even get an extract played.