BaL 23.11.19 - Haydn: Symphony no. 102

[edashtav]

Random thoughts re Let the composer speak: Another factor is surely performance (public or private) v studio recording. Earlier composers were obviously only writing with the former in mind, i.e. not thinking about the repeated hearing of an identical performance, set down using retakes, coffee breaks, acoustic tweaking, correction of imperfections etc. Strictly speaking, therefore, it seems to me that no meticulously produced and edited modern studio recording can ever be what Haydn would have "spoken". Nowadays, performers can choose to do things in a live rendition which on repeated hearing might become irksome and would be avoided in the studio. I enjoyed the Fey Haydn 102 but probably won't feel the need to go back so often. The holding back of the beat in the minuet, for example, would for me become tiresome over time and is the sort of wackiness which would probably also eliminate it as a BaL recommendation.

In similar vein, I recently heard Die schöne Müllerin from Christoph Prégardien and Michael Gees. He sometimes uses embellishment of the musical line. It is known that singers at the Schubertiades, eg Michael Vogl, used to decorate the music with grace-notes and such like, presumably in a different way each time. I think I might enjoy that at a live recital (and wish I could have attended one of Schubert's soirées) but in this studio recording it seems out of place.

One reason why Bob Dylan continues to tour heavily, aged 78, is that, despite all the studio recordings he has made, he firmly believes that a song only truly come into existence when it takes shape live in front of an audience. The studio recording might be great in many ways but it is still a fossil.

: . I, too, enjoyed the Fey Haydn 102 but probably won't feel the need to go back so often. The holding back of the beat in the minuet, for example, would for me become tiresome over time and is the sort of wackiness which would probably also eliminate it as a BaL recommendation.

[Goon525]

My description of the recording of the Fey as ‘reverberant’ has been queried - and I think rightly, as I oversimplified. Yes, I do find the acoustic itself reverberant (though not to excess), but I agree that the instruments themselves are recorded rather closely. I find the end result within acceptable limits, but I can imagine why others might not.

I thought it might be interesting to copy David Threasher’s original Gramophone review of the Fey (11/12), which begs the question: has anyone else heard the Minkowski, which I enjoyed but Jayne found dull?




“Do you remember the news story a couple of months ago in which a well-meaning parishioner decided to ‘restore’ a fresco of Jesus Christ in a Spanish church? It ended up bearing more of a resemblance to hairy ’80s DJ Dave Lee Travis than to Our Lord and Saviour. Thomas Fey has done a similar sort of thing to another miraculous work of art, Haydn’s antepenultimate ‘London’ Symphony. His Heidelbergers bring all their lustrous string tone to the almost Parsifalian opening string chorale of Symphony No 102 but Fey’s instinct is to meddle: the accented unisons that punctuate the Allegro are treated as pauses, upsetting the music’s flow, while the Minuet is disastrously rushed (and its Trio taken ludicrously slowly). If the slow movement, with its gorgeous cello cantilena, and the scampering finale go with less troubling incident, it’s not enough to save the performance. That Spanish lady destroyed a unique work of art but thankfully other 102s are, of course, available: I never tire of recommending Colin Davis’s Concertgebouw ‘London’ cycle but do also hear Marc Minkowski’s set, to which I return again and again with increasing satisfaction.“

[Alison]

Very good review of the Fey from David Threasher. Spot on for my money.

Minkowski demands to be heard next!

This has been a good thread in best BaL forum tradition. Perhaps there’s life in the old dog yet

[HighlandDougie]

Goon's reference to Minkowski and that of Alison has had me re-download it from Qobuz (I bought it in 2010 and am impressed that it was still so easily available). Live recordings from a cycle performed in the Vienna Konzerthaus, with occasional (but not serious) orchestral slips. Now, I admit that I may be biased but I think that Marc Minkowski is too imaginative a musician ever to be described as, "dull". To place someone who can deliver Rameau, Offenbach, Hans Rott and Haydn with such a degree of élan in the same category as, say, (and here I'm betraying my prejudices) Charles Dutoit - and who may be many other things but, "dull"? Non, non et non. OK, he doesn't fiddle around with 102 à la Fey (no drastic slowing for the trio, for instance) but, pace, Jayne, well worth a listen.

[jayne lee wilson]

My description of the recording of the Fey as ‘reverberant’ has been queried - and I think rightly, as I oversimplified. Yes, I do find the acoustic itself reverberant (though not to excess), but I agree that the instruments themselves are recorded rather closely. I find the end result within acceptable limits, but I can imagine why others might not.

I thought it might be interesting to copy David Threasher’s original Gramophone review of the Fey (11/12), which begs the question: has anyone else heard the Minkowski, which I enjoyed but Jayne found dull?




“Do you remember the news story a couple of months ago in which a well-meaning parishioner decided to ‘restore’ a fresco of Jesus Christ in a Spanish church? It ended up bearing more of a resemblance to hairy ’80s DJ Dave Lee Travis than to Our Lord and Saviour. Thomas Fey has done a similar sort of thing to another miraculous work of art, Haydn’s antepenultimate ‘London’ Symphony. His Heidelbergers bring all their lustrous string tone to the almost Parsifalian opening string chorale of Symphony No 102 but Fey’s instinct is to meddle: the accented unisons that punctuate the Allegro are treated as pauses, upsetting the music’s flow, while the Minuet is disastrously rushed (and its Trio taken ludicrously slowly). If the slow movement, with its gorgeous cello cantilena, and the scampering finale go with less troubling incident, it’s not enough to save the performance. That Spanish lady destroyed a unique work of art but thankfully other 102s are, of course, available: I never tire of recommending Colin Davis’s Concertgebouw ‘London’ cycle but do also hear Marc Minkowski’s set, to which I return again and again with increasing satisfaction.“

Hmm.... This is an earlier review. By 5/18, after reviewing many more Fey releases and palpably becoming more sympathetic toward the creative aesthetic, David Threasher had modified his view...

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/...es-feyspillner.

He's a very intelligent reviewer who takes to time to reconsider. This is a very important principle, and is why I try to assess each performance on its own terms, after several auditions and excerpts, not just comparatively or against some inner touchstone. It can be surprising, sometimes chastening, to return to a recording after months or years and hear it differently.... something has changed in your inner world...

***

I wouldn't call Minkowski dull in all he does - of course not
But I'm less convinced by his later symphonic sets (Schubert and this Haydn, with both of which I spent quite some time when they appeared...I recall strong preference for the SWR/Norrington Haydn which had been released a few months before, still a huge favourite) than by his many splendid Rameau and other baroque releases, several of which I bought as they appeared.

I wonder if anyone here returns often to those Minkowski cycles? "Nothing much wrong with them but....." sums it up for me. I rather regretted their purchase later...

***
I heard the 102-BaL itself and found it very good indeed. Around 15 musical examples from 10 or 11 conductors, covering a wide scope of performance styles.
Sarah Walker's comments were clear and succinctly illustrative. Little to find fault with. I couldn't share the enthusiasm for Marriner, but was surprised by the Hickox - really came to life. Haven't heard those in higher res yet though.
Behind with the listening after a bad day, still ectopic, fuzzy and dizzy now and can't eat much, so haven't heard the Goodman 102 yet.... I did manage the Clock Symphony on Hyperion lossless though and thought it excellent! Lively, fresh and with that sparkly fortepiano. A winner indeed!

Better try sipping some Soup - the Great Healer....

[Goon525]

FWIW, I found Minkowski’s Schubert cycle a disappointment too. I’d high hopes for it after the Haydn Londons, but they weren’t realised.

[Edgy 2]

Very good review of the Fey from David Threasher. Spot on for my money.

Minkowski demands to be heard next!

This has been a good thread in best BaL forum tradition. Perhaps there’s life in the old dog yet

Yes,I enjoy the threads but no longer listen to the programme

[Alison]

Get well soon Jayne.

Three Nurofen might be worth a try.

[rauschwerk]

In the matter of speedy minuets, I came across the following 1794 anecdote in Christopher Hogwood's excellent 'Haydn's Visits to England':-

'Haydn sent for the three Moralts [members of a famous string quartet] from Vienna, to show the Londoners the time in which the minuets in his quartettes should be played. He considered they were spoilt by being hurried, nor could he dispossess them of the idea that quickness was the essential character of the moderns.' (quoted from L A C Bombet: The Life of Haydn, trans. Gardiner 1817). This reinforces his remark to Johan Berwald to which I referred earlier in this thread.

[Goon525]

My warm view of the Minkowski was in all honesty based on listening to his whole London set several years ago. So I’ve just used the cancellation of an outdoor activity due to the ceaseless rain as an excuse to have another listen. (That’s my two listens to 102 for the decade done and dusted!) And I still like it a lot, it’s a more central interpretation than the Fey, but in no sense dull, plenty of rhythmic bounce and well played and recorded. I think it’s a much more sensible Library choice than Fey - but I do accept that the Fey is more fun and a captivating listen. Does anyone have the means of comparing Minkowski and Roy Goodman?

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes - I downloaded the Hyperion lossless of Goodman's 101/102 and will hear it shortly. On the evidence of 101 & first two movements of 102 I'm finding a sparklier, livelier feel, more distinctive-less-anonymous orchestral sound in the (immediately appealing) Goodman , but I'm in slow-recovery mode today so will try to say more later...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

To clarify the "integrity" of the BaL discussion, would anyone object if I moved the posts on "other favourite Haydn Symphonies" to the Favourite Haydn Recordings Thread that Barbi started 18 months ago?

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?19078-Favourite-Haydn-recordings/page4&highlight=favourite+haydn

[cloughie]

To clarify the "integrity" of the BaL discussion, would anyone object if I moved the posts on "other favourite Haydn Symphonies" to the Favourite Haydn Recordings Thread that Barbi started 18 months ago?

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...avourite+haydn

A wise decision I would say ferney! Sets up a Haydn seek!

[DracoM]

[Bryn]

A wise decision I would say ferney! Sets up a Haydn seek!

That's nearly as bad as the sobriquet I used to refer to the much missed general store which replaced the old Co-op department store in Bracknell and which was run by an extended Sikh family (the very building now gone due to the ill-named 'Lexicon' redevelopment of the town centre (looks like they never got past the cover of their Scrabble word search tome), i.e. the "Sikh and find shop".