BaL 23.11.19 - Haydn: Symphony no. 102

[rauschwerk]

I listened to Fey's account of the minuet, and was immediately reminded of Haydn's remark that his minuets are a cross between minuets for dancing and prestos, and that excessively brisk tempi will ruin them. To my mind that is just what Fey does, and his mannered way with the upbeats quickly becomes irritating. In my view, this is not one of Haydn's playful minuets. The finale of this symphony is the place for that mood.

[cloughie]

Rieu v Klemperer?

Steady now! If Rieu has done Haydn, seek him out!

[richardfinegold]

BACK TO BACK….
Musiciens du Louvre/Minkowski……Orch.18th C/Bruggen

I returned briefly (I wasn’t tempted to linger, I’m afraid…) to Minkowski (Naive 24/44.1 download) - rather dull, I felt, with dutiful rather than colourful or characterful winds. He drives the music hard, banging about with stiff rhythms and a lack of tonal or rhythmic refinements: not much aural hedonism here. (I often have the same problem with his all-too-worthy Schubert. Not terrible, but…)
Just compare Fey to Minkowski in the finale: the Heidelberg winds keep jumping out at you, little jack-in-the-boxes with subtle quips and asides, and Fey’s phrase and rubato are full of witty pleasures, kittenishly playful. “Indulgent”? Not for me, not at all….
Minkowski just plays it, dead straight, tonally monochrome, so the winds play their notes, not a smile in sight. (Kuijken might be said to offer an “objective” reading too, but with so many telling subtleties of phrase and rhythm, how much more involved and involving it all is!)

Set in the vast resonant spaces of the Vredenburg, Bruggen’s 102 with the Oot18thC (Philips CD) can seem less than ideally immediate; but the acoustic effect is pleasingly atmospheric in itself, and this characteristically understated, lyrical yet lively and pacy performance does grow on you - subtler and more varied in its expressions than may first appear. The light, fluid rhythms and textures and hushed pps are nicely contrasted with weighty, almost Beethovenian tuttis.
One of Bruggen’s earlier Haydn tapings, whilst very enjoyable, it doesn’t quite show him at his best; perhaps those lovable, orchestrally-blended Bruggenisms are less favourably observed at an acoustic distance. Better heard on the later Paris set, and the OAE in the Sturm und Drang …but I like returning to this 102 - there’s just “something about it”…. that sense of poetry and intensity just below the surface that Bruggen so often brings out in the sound itself.

I don’t know, jlw. I’ve listened to the Bruggen twice in the past few days, and it just seems so underpowered and matter of fact.
I also discovered that I had Fey stored on my NAS and I agree with observation that he seems kind of manic. I think I will seek out Bernstein on Qobuz.

[rauschwerk]

I once owned the Solti London set and it gave me a good deal of pleasure. In the end, though, I needed shelf space and I couldn't see that it offered me anything that Davis's set didn't.

Davis is very fine in 102, though I think he yields to Rattle in his choice of minuet tempo (Rattle is marginally quicker). As for the finale, I have compared Rattle and Minkowski. It is full of little interjections of the head motif which must be articulated with absolute clarity. Rattle achieves this really well, whereas Minkowski, at his slightly faster tempo, is less good. To my (admittedly rather deficient) ears, Minkowski's period instruments don't sound so very different from Rattle's modern ones.

So out of the versions I own or have owned (Beecham, Solti, Bruggen, Davis, Fischer, Rattle, Minkowski), Rattle is my library choice and I shall be surprised if this BaL reveals another which satisfies me more.

[BBMmk2]

Do try to hear the Heidelberg/Thomas Fey if you can. Gone back to it often this week, it is very special! So witty, expressive, surprising and characterful... the winds are a joy throughout - if you want a quick sample, listen to their interjections in the finale...

Many thanks as usual, JLW, I will.

[LMcD]

Steady now! If Rieu has done Haydn, seek him out!

His late father, also André, recorded Haydn and Handel concertos with Dutch forces - still available on Sony Essential Classics, I believe.
How about a comparison of OK's 'Merry Waltz' and any of AR's Strauss offerings?
Sadly, there are no Klemperer recordings of works by Sir Anthony Hopkins (no, really!) which can be compared and contrasted with at least one by Rieu.
If Klemperer v Rieu is a non-starter, how about Rieu v Previn -'The Two Andrés' - the winner to go through to the final (or should that be 'play-off?) against André Kostelanetz?

[Alison]

I listened to Fey's account of the minuet, and was immediately reminded of Haydn's remark that his minuets are a cross between minuets for dancing and prestos, and that excessively brisk tempi will ruin them. To my mind that is just what Fey does, and his mannered way with the upbeats quickly becomes irritating. In my view, this is not one of Haydn's playful minuets. The finale of this symphony is the place for that mood.

Agreed. I find Fey’s intro too self conscious. And when the second group comes in, heralded by the unison chords, I find Fey simply too disruptive while conceding that Solti breezes over the nature of the material at that point.

[jayne lee wilson]

Like/dislike for sure as ever, everyone, but once you say Recording A is "excessively brisk" or "too disruptive" and Recording B "breezes over the material at that point" What is your Golden Mean? Is there one?

And once established, how far are other recordings allowed to deviate from it, before they are rejected as "too....?"

What about the wind ornaments in Fey's minuet? For me they are affectionate in just the right way - playful even.... a part of the uniquely inventive, renewing character of this recording (vital to hear it complete, preferably at least twice...).
Or are these also out-of-favour for other ears and hearts?

[MickyD]

BACK TO BACK….
Musiciens du Louvre/Minkowski……Orch.18th C/Bruggen

I returned briefly (I wasn’t tempted to linger, I’m afraid…) to Minkowski (Naive 24/44.1 download) - rather dull, I felt, with dutiful rather than colourful or characterful winds. He drives the music hard, banging about with stiff rhythms and a lack of tonal or rhythmic refinements: not much aural hedonism here. (I often have the same problem with his all-too-worthy Schubert. Not terrible, but…)
Just compare Fey to Minkowski in the finale: the Heidelberg winds keep jumping out at you, little jack-in-the-boxes with subtle quips and asides, and Fey’s phrase and rubato are full of witty pleasures, kittenishly playful. “Indulgent”? Not for me, not at all….
Minkowski just plays it, dead straight, tonally monochrome, so the winds play their notes, not a smile in sight. (Kuijken might be said to offer an “objective” reading too, but with so many telling subtleties of phrase and rhythm, how much more involved and involving it all is!)

Set in the vast resonant spaces of the Vredenburg, Bruggen’s 102 with the Oot18thC (Philips CD) can seem less than ideally immediate; but the acoustic effect is pleasingly atmospheric in itself, and this characteristically understated, lyrical yet lively and pacy performance does grow on you - subtler and more varied in its expressions than may first appear. The light, fluid rhythms and textures and hushed pps are nicely contrasted with weighty, almost Beethovenian tuttis.
One of Bruggen’s earlier Haydn tapings, whilst very enjoyable, it doesn’t quite show him at his best; perhaps those lovable, orchestrally-blended Bruggenisms are less favourably observed at an acoustic distance. Better heard on the later Paris set, and the OAE in the Sturm und Drang …but I like returning to this 102 - there’s just “something about it”…. that sense of poetry and intensity just below the surface that Bruggen so often brings out in the sound itself.

I've just listened to the Bruggen and find it really rather leaden - and I have to say that I find Bruggen pretty much the same in Rameau, too. I think Kuijken is much more pleasing. Strange to think that two musicians who collaborated for so many years sound so very different.

[HighlandDougie]

I've just listened to the Bruggen and find it really rather leaden - and I have to say that I find Bruggen pretty much the same in Rameau, too. I think Kuijken is much more pleasing. Strange to think that two musicians who collaborated for so many years sound so very different.

Not sure that I entirely agree about FB in Rameau - although I think I know what you mean - but very much agree in respect of his Haydn "London" symphonies set. Kuijken (especially in the Japanese pressings recommended by someone on this M/board) is much preferable to my ears (and maybe I should resurrect the Fey box from the eaves, where it was despatched last year). I still like Eugen Jochum, too.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Like/dislike for sure as ever, everyone, but once you say Recording A is "excessively brisk" or "too disruptive" and Recording B "breezes over the material at that point" What is your Golden Mean? Is there one?

Golden Mean? Very subjective, but perhaps the ideal is allowing the music to breathe, without it sagging. Some conductors see fast speed as something macho. But that's subjective too.

[jayne lee wilson]

A Macho Hobbit? Now there's a thought....

But Fey is very mercurial... he follows the music and expresses it instinctively - devotional, beguiling, charming, whipping up a storm, smiling or wisecracking as he goes - then suddenly, fierily OTT!
And some of us go along joyfully and wildly with that. Thomas Fey's tragic accident only makes his creations the more poignantly precious.

I've been following his series for many years now and macho is the last word that would come to mind... he says in the notes that his two conducting mentors were Harnoncourt and..... Bernstein.

Go figure !

[jayne lee wilson]

Snapshots.....

CBSO/Rattle (EMI CD) - “its so elegant so intelligent….” Or so I thought, at first - beautifully-judged tempi, exquisitely precise phrasing, airy textures and pert rhythms….
“Nothing wrong with it, but…” This is very MOR. I craved more individuality or character, dare I say something more provocative. A guttier, earthier, more colourfully open instrumental weave. (The assertive horns in the minuet suggest that more was possible..). Well we live in a different world now. The Isle of HIPPs is full of wonders....
Still, if you don’t play the work often, and lively well-balanced not-a-detail-missed neutrality is your thing, then this might be just the thing too.…

NYPO/Bernstein (Columbia CD)…. despite a very steady, slightly plodding feel to the rhythms, its touching how LB coaxes his orchestra (as early as 1962) to play with such delicacy and sensitivity in (i), genuinely seeking a classical grace and lightness, with some subtle dynamics too. The finale is really quick and deft, if a shade too straight for me - a bit lacking in humour, wind characters (windividuality!) or rhythmic lift and life.
So the main problem here is the inner movement tempi. The Romantically-Inclined adagio is 7’02, the minuet 6’00, so by the trio, we seem to have had rather a long stretch of slow and steady…but then the finale takes off..... the symphony seems to hold together less well as a result of this mix and match pacing.

[rauschwerk]

Waffle, waffle .... . 17 minutes in and we have heard just 4 short excerpts. Dear oh dear.

[Goon525]

I thought Sarah Walker dealt well with the wrong excerpt from Roy Goodman being played. But it’s already clear that many serious contenders - some mentioned above - are not even going to get a look in.