BaL 16.11.19 - Stravinsky: Symphony of Psalms

[ardcarp]

Odd that Barenboim was included as a non-contender from the start. I would have liked to hear his views on a wider range of recordings

Barenbpoim was obviously put in to show how not to do it. But it was a ridiculously small field. I admire Jeremy S very much, but what is BAL all about?

Actually JS's comment "This is not for every choral society", was intereseting. I don't think he meant it to be patronising, but I've always been in favour of jolting 'the average choral society' out of its core repertoire. In fact I began to think about Stravinsky pieces I've sung, and offhand I can think of;

Symphony of Psalms
The Mass
Pater Noster
Ave maria

In fact Igor was quite kind to choirs. None of the above are 'difficult' in the sense of pitching notes. The first two require rhythmic competence, of course. But I see no reason why a competent choral society and an enterprising conductor shouldn't do the first two in my list. I remember being blown away by The Symphony of Psalms when I first sang in it as a student in the 1960s.

[zola]

an irrelevant reference to the Beatles.

This chord seems to be a pet theory of Summerly's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5yKXRPUotc

[Alison]

This chord seems to be a pet theory of Summerly's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5yKXRPUotc

How interesting. I could clearly imagine JS looking like Charlie Stayt; I was quite wrong!

[Lordgeous]

I found it all rather irritating, with the usual lavish praise of Bernstein, although to be fair it did sound an excellent performance, and little bit of hyperbole, “ greatest religious work” of the last century delivered in a tone that implied if one thought otherwise you were rather dull, and to show that all music is equal an irrelevant reference to the Beatles.

My real problem is that there was no explanation of how the very short list was reached, how many versions were listened to blind I wonder, and really limiting the choice to so few gave no opportunity to hear other approaches even if they did not match the chosen front runners in the presenters opinion.

Precisely! very disappointing and frrustrating and too much chat. He must have known what discs he'd selected before blind testing them? Bit of a farce methinks. I heard Stravinsky conducting this in Oxford Town Hall in the Oxford Bach Festival, 1960s, LSO and I think the relatively new Schola Cantorum (Lazlo Heltay?), mainly undergrads I think, wonderful fresh young voices. One of my most memorable musical experiences ever. The first half (under Kraft) was a disaster. Live broadcast too I think. Any other board members there?

[ardcarp]

I heard Stravinsky conducting this in Oxford Town Hall in the Oxford Bach Festival, 1960s

Lucky duck!

[Lordgeous]

I think I managed to get in the Green Room after and shook his hand - but that might be wishful memory! I remember he was very frail and had to be helped to the podium.

[oddoneout]

Barenbpoim was obviously put in to show how not to do it. But it was a ridiculously small field. I admire Jeremy S very much, but what is BAL all about?

Actually JS's comment "This is not for every choral society", was intereseting. I don't think he meant it to be patronising, but I've always been in favour of jolting 'the average choral society' out of its core repertoire. In fact I began to think about Stravinsky pieces I've sung, and offhand I can think of;

Symphony of Psalms
The Mass
Pater Noster
Ave maria

In fact Igor was quite kind to choirs. None of the above are 'difficult' in the sense of pitching notes. The first two require rhythmic competence, of course. But I see no reason why a competent choral society and an enterprising conductor shouldn't do the first two in my list. I remember being blown away by The Symphony of Psalms when I first sang in it as a student in the 1960s.

I sang this about 45 years ago with a more than competent choir and conductor, and the problem wasn't either the notes or the rhythms particularly, but the fact that most of the choir disliked it even when they'd got to grips with it. A prominent choir member nicknamed it 'Cacophony of Psalms', which stuck, and didn't help. I found the initial learning stages quite hard(possibly because of the drag from the negative singers) but then it clicked and I was able to just sing it with enjoyment. The audience seemed split - some thought it wonderful, many/most disliked it, but on the plus side I don't think anybody was indifferent!
I would dearly love to sing it again but successive MDs of the choir I now sing with have recoiled in horror at the suggestion. Don't suppose I'll ever get to sing Malcolm Williamson's 'Symphony for Voices' again either which came a few years later, with a different choir, but always coupled in my memory with the Stravinsky.

[Petrushka]

I heard Stravinsky conducting this in Oxford Town Hall in the Oxford Bach Festival, 1960s, LSO and I think the relatively new Schola Cantorum (Lazlo Heltay?), mainly undergrads I think, wonderful fresh young voices. One of my most memorable musical experiences ever. The first half (under Kraft) was a disaster. Live broadcast too I think. Any other board members there?

Could have been this from June 29 1964 https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/bd469d2e...3f9ea7f5a6835c

Part 2, conducted by Stravinsky, followed after the interval.

[Alison]

Well done Pet.

[ardcarp]

Wow. Janet Baker, Heather Harper, Gerald English..and Robert Craft conducting the first half.

Gerald English lived into his 90s (he lived round the corner from me in his latter years) and only died in Feb this year.

[Nevilevelis]

I sang this about 45 years ago with a more than competent choir and conductor, and the problem wasn't either the notes or the rhythms particularly, but the fact that most of the choir disliked it even when they'd got to grips with it. A prominent choir member nicknamed it 'Cacophony of Psalms', which stuck, and didn't help. I found the initial learning stages quite hard(possibly because of the drag from the negative singers) but then it clicked and I was able to just sing it with enjoyment. The audience seemed split - some thought it wonderful, many/most disliked it, but on the plus side I don't think anybody was indifferent!
I would dearly love to sing it again but successive MDs of the choir I now sing with have recoiled in horror at the suggestion. Don't suppose I'll ever get to sing Malcolm Williamson's 'Symphony for Voices' again either which came a few years later, with a different choir, but always coupled in my memory with the Stravinsky.

It's a fabulous work - lucky you!

NVV

[Ein Heldenleben]

Barenbpoim was obviously put in to show how not to do it. But it was a ridiculously small field. I admire Jeremy S very much, but what is BAL all about?

Actually JS's comment "This is not for every choral society", was intereseting. I don't think he meant it to be patronising, but I've always been in favour of jolting 'the average choral society' out of its core repertoire. In fact I began to think about Stravinsky pieces I've sung, and offhand I can think of;

Symphony of Psalms
The Mass
Pater Noster
Ave maria

In fact Igor was quite kind to choirs. None of the above are 'difficult' in the sense of pitching notes. The first two require rhythmic competence, of course. But I see no reason why a competent choral society and an enterprising conductor shouldn't do the first two in my list. I remember being blown away by The Symphony of Psalms when I first sang in it as a student in the 1960s.

This is very interesting . I know we have some serious choral experts on the forum . The Barenboim excerpt had some poor intonation from the Orch de Paris choir and that led the reviewer to dismiss the recording. But poor intonation can afflict very well honed choirs for a complex variety of reasons - sometimes they can’t hear the band . The reviewer then went on to make the ‘ not for choral societies ‘ comment. Yet plenty of choral societies attempt Bach with semi quavers aplenty and fraught fugal entries . The point of this - is the Stravinsky piece really that difficult?

[Maclintick]

The point of this - is the Stravinsky piece really that difficult?

Having sung IS's Mass with an averagely-competent amateur choir I would estimate not, if Ardcarp's table of comparative difficulty is accurate. Everyone should hear the composer's own Toronto recording (Jeremy Summerly's BAL choice), of course, but I love the LSO/Bernstein & Westminster/O'Donnell versions as well.

[Lordgeous]

Could have been this from June 29 1964 https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/bd469d2e...3f9ea7f5a6835c

Part 2, conducted by Stravinsky, followed after the interval.

Yes That's the one. I see it wasnt live but recorded. Just as well as Kraft had to have 2 or 3 goes at starting the Bach. It was if they hadn't rehearsed at all. The orchestra didnt know if he was beating in 2 or 4. It was most embarrasing for audience and performers.

Soloists imncluded janey Baker/ Wow, I was still at school and many years later she commissioned a song dydle from me which she premiered at Aldeburgh!

[ardcarp]

dydle?

Dydle or cycle...I'm impressed!