BaL 9.11.19 - Mahler: Symphony no. 3

[Petrushka]

As the passing of Jessye Norman was the reason to put the stream on in the first place they could have included the Oh Mensch! movement only and left it at that instead of this stupidity. Then again, they must surely have better examples of Jessye Norman in the archive.

Regret posting the link now but it's given us some amusement, to be sure. Imagine if Radio 3 had done this!!

[LMcD]

Let's hope that Radio 3 planners don't take it into their heads to plan a 'Symphonic Shuffle' series.
Many years ago, Peter Barker, having realized or been informed that he was playing the movements of a Haydn symphony in the wrong order, said that, as they all sounded more or less the same, it wasn't that serious a mistake.

[Richard Tarleton]

Absolutely … but what no Haitink?

Indeed - fascinating article, but I was left baffled, not to say affronted by the relegation of my beloved Haitink to the also-rans at the end (better in live performance, or words to that effect). It all goes to show just how subjective many of these judgements, and reactions, are. The processes the music goes through between leaving the musicians and entering our heads conditioned by so many things above and beyond an objective score/performance analysis - what we bring to the experience, our own knowledge, experience, personality, auditory equipment (ears), the conditions in which one hears a piece, or a performer, to name but a few.... I love and trust Horenstein (whom I heard live a few times tho not in this), Kubelik and others, do not own any Bernstein recordings (of anything) and do not warm to him at any level.... I note Tony Duggan was "fascinated by the phenomena [sic] of live performance" - well, yes , who isn't?

[Bryn]

Indeed - fascinating article, but I was left baffled, not to say affronted by the relegation of my beloved Haitink to the also-rans at the end (better in live performance, or words to that effect). It all goes to show just how subjective many of these judgements, and reactions, are. The processes the music goes through between leaving the musicians and entering our heads conditioned by so many things above and beyond an objective score/performance analysis - what we bring to the experience, our own knowledge, experience, personality, auditory equipment (ears), the conditions in which one hears a piece, or a performer, to name but a few.... I love and trust Horenstein (whom I heard live a few times tho not in this), Kubelik and others, do not own any Bernstein recordings (of anything) and do not warm to him at any level.... I note Tony Duggan was "fascinated by the phenomena [sic] of live performance" - well, yes , who isn't?

Why the "[sic]"? There are surely several phenomena that may be associated with live performance?

Listened again to the 4th movement of four Abbado directed performances in the early hours. The DG BP and WP recordings, plus the RCO Dutch R4 linked to, all came prior to the fashion for the interpretation of hinaufziehen as a sort of rising portamento with a very brief fermata prior to the following note. In his LFO recording (on DVD and Blu-ray), though, the oboe family instruments play the night bird effect beautifully.

[mathias broucek]

Sorry to be dense, but which recording won?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Abbado by virtue of The Jessye Norman trump card....

[Bryn]

Abbado by virtue of The Jessye Norman trump card....

As in, Jessye Norman, Wiener Philharmoniker et al, Claudio Abbado (not the Berliner Phil or Lucerne FO recorded performances).

[richardfinegold]

I collected all the Abbado Mahler in the ‘80s as they came out, including the 3rd (with the pink feather design on the cover). Great performance and I know what Mival means about it somehow speaking more than many. But I recall my disappointment was that the sound seemed very low level / recessed and lacking the wide dynamic range that this piece cries out for. I wonder if that has been rectified in recent streaming options - I will investigate.


I think it’s also because they seem to be directing the programme to newcomers this season, in tandem with the ‘twofer’ chat format, so that for many of the seasoned listeners/collectors here, there are usually no great revelations. For that reason, I only listen with one ear these days, if I listen at all - it remains interesting to hear versions of a piece that may have passed me by, but with the short short-lists, such moments are few and far between. (Hence I’m with Heldenleben in his #81 above)

Also I increasingly tune out the chat, not least because AMcG’s repetitive mantras (“What should we listen out for?”, “What are we going to hear next?” &c. &c.) grate more and more as the weeks go by. Not really a criticism of him: it’s inevitable with the thankless and pointless role the format calls upon him to play Also, the interjections are often fake: he knows darned well “what we’re going to hear next”, as revealed a couple of times when the reviewer has dried and he’s had to answer his own question This phoney element really bugs me.


Very interesting

I obtained the Abbado/Vienna about a year ago second hand. It is a funny sounding recording, engineering wise, although not as bad as the lp version of the Resurrection with the CSO from the same cycle, where critics of the time complained that the off stage brass band was inaudible..
I am surprised that the aforementioned Abbado was the “winner”. I think his Lucerne recording was far better. As for Haitink, although I have affection for his CSO recording I much prefer his latest with the Bavarians

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Sorry to be dense, but which recording won?

Abbado by virtue of The Jessye Norman trump card....

Oh! I thought Ozawa was meant in #85!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nek2Qx3dsxQ

... or, to cut to the chase:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0uAyeKgruA

[Goon525]

I've only just listened to this BaL as I was away at the weekend. I remember commenting a few weeks ago that we were down to sampling ten versions of a major work. But I think on this occasion we only heard SIX. Perhaps I've forgotten one - but I can only remember the four that made the short list - 2 Lennies, 1 Bernie and 1 Claudio, plus two that didn't, Ivan Fischer and Simon Rattle. And the chosen Bernie wasn't even the BBC MM's own recent Record of the Year, which didn't qualify for a mention (along with the classic Horenstein etc etc)! Having said that, Mivel seemed erudite and sensible, and it wasn't a bad short list, but this seems an absurdly small pool from which to illustrate.

[Alison]

Good summary Goon.

[Maclintick]

.

William Mival was right in saying that this work really needs to be experienced in live performance, not least due to its vast dynamic range. While the duo were prattling in the studio, my mind went back to last year’s Prom by the Boston Symphony/Nelsons when my ears and eyes were so engaged by the experience that the trapped nerve in my left foot never became an issue while standing unsupported for 110 minutes. The most magical part was when Thomas Rolfs crept offstage and played the posthorn (that he acquired specifically for this solo) from behind a curtain. Being surrounded by thousands of very still listeners focusing on that plaintive sound, as if coming from another world, created a tingle factor unachievable in one’s listening room at home.

Having said that, Tony Duggan’s survey was of more use to me than this BaL:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/Mahler3.htm

.

Thanks for the link Keraulophone. Like others I found Tony Duggan's survey well worth reading -- sui generis & magpie-like in a good way, full of insightful nuggets, e.g. his characteristion of Barbirolli & the Hallé's colourful vulgarity in the 1st movt march :

"There's a hint of the Promenade at Blackpool: the whiff of fish and chips, the sun catching the silver paper on the "Kiss Me Quick" hats, the tang of petrol from charabancs depositing mill girls from the looms of Manchester on Bank Holiday Monday."

William Mival likened VPO/Boulez in this episode to the motorcade of a be-feathered Austro-Hungarian Archduke in a Daimler, an opulent vision of top-drawer vulgarity, perhaps, the salient point stressed by both commentators being that a successful performance of this monster requires conductor and players to consign good manners and good taste to the waste-bin, something Tony Duggan believed was triumphantly achieved by Semyon Bychkov and his WDR/Köln forces, among modern interpretations in pristine sound. This version was not considered in BAL. Anyone know it ?

Other than that, judging from the excerpts played, there's likely no such beast as a definitive GM 3, which, for a work its creator envisioned as encompassing the whole world, is probably no bad thing.

VPO/Abbado -- Great understanding & relishing of contrasts, though some have questioned DG's sonics. Jessye's marvellous, of course, but for me the sumptuously wobble-some warbling of the ladies of the Vienna State Opera in movt 5 is a bit of a deal-breaker. The LSO chorus women in his later BPO recording are much more freshly to my taste, as it were.
CBSO/Rattle -- excerpt from movt 2 ploddy & lacking in flow IMHO.
CSO/Haitink -- Coherent integration of contrasts with great pacing & overall vision. Stellar orchestral playing, but maybe the legendary CSO brass would never be persuaded to make an ugly sound even if BH demanded it ? I love the bass definition in this excerpt, though. I have his BRSO version (admired by RFG), which is marvellous except for a fractionally sluggish movt 5.
NYPO/Bernstein -- Finale is marked "Langsam" but also "Ruhevoll. Empfunden" and, crucially, " Sehr Gebünden. Sehr Ausdrucksvoll Gesungen". GM the pre-eminent opera conductor of his day here insisting on an expressive, singing quality which can't possibly be achieved at Bernstein's zombie-walk tempo...

Solti didn't get a look-in. Out-of-fashion, perhaps ? Heard live he was exciting in Mahler & made a large number of excellent recordings in London, Vienna, & Chicago. The Kingsway Hall Decca Third will be on my wish-list as the finale has been praised as having that "Gesangvoll" quality at a more flowing tempo. Another opera conductor, you see...

[Goon525]

Ah, it was seven. I forgot Boulez.

[akiralx]

Other than that, judging from the excerpts played, there's likely no such beast as a definitive GM 3, which, for a work its creator envisioned as encompassing the whole world, is probably no bad thing.

VPO/Abbado -- Great understanding & relishing of contrasts, though some have questioned DG's sonics. Jessye's marvellous, of course, but for me the sumptuously wobble-some warbling of the ladies of the Vienna State Opera in movt 5 is a bit of a deal-breaker. The LSO chorus women in his later BPO recording are much more freshly to my taste, as it were.
CBSO/Rattle -- excerpt from movt 2 ploddy & lacking in flow IMHO.
CSO/Haitink -- Coherent integration of contrasts with great pacing & overall vision. Stellar orchestral playing, but maybe the legendary CSO brass would never be persuaded to make an ugly sound even if BH demanded it ? I love the bass definition in this excerpt, though. I have his BRSO version (admired by RFG), which is marvellous except for a fractionally sluggish movt 5.
NYPO/Bernstein -- Finale is marked "Langsam" but also "Ruhevoll. Empfunden" and, crucially, " Sehr Gebünden. Sehr Ausdrucksvoll Gesungen". GM the pre-eminent opera conductor of his day here insisting on an expressive, singing quality which can't possibly be achieved at Bernstein's zombie-walk tempo...

As another poster said, Manfred Honeck conducting the Pittsburgh SO live on Exton is very recommendable, superbly played and idiomatic in the passages you have mentioned, with the frisson of a live performance. Excellent hybrid SACD which I listen to often.

[Maclintick]

As another poster said, Manfred Honeck conducting the Pittsburgh SO live on Exton is very recommendable, superbly played and idiomatic in the passages you have mentioned, with the frisson of a live performance. Excellent hybrid SACD which I listen to often.

Thanks, Akiralx. Highland Dougie & Pianoman have also recommended Pittsburgh/Honeck, so I'll seek it out, along with WDR/Bychkov. This symphony is GM's foremost celebration of Nature -- colossally threatened worldwide, of course, & especially in your neck of the woods at the moment with the raging bush fires. I hope our B*****-obsessed country is able to follow Canada & the US's lead & offer assistance