BaL 9.11.19 - Mahler: Symphony no. 3

[LMcD]

I've got a whole recording of Mahler's 3rd symphony - Rattle/CBSO - PLUS a filler in the shape of some songs!

[verismissimo]

I'm always interested in early recordings of important works. In the case of Mahler 3, which was completed in 1896 … What I do have is Boult with the BBCSO and Ferrier, recorded live in the first UK performance of the symphony - at a public concert at BBC Maida Vale on 29 November 1947. About to compare and contrast this with Haitink and the Concertgebouw!

It is quite painful to report that the 1947 live Boult is in such primitive sound that it provides no competition with the marvellous Concertgebouw/Haitink recording. What's more, I remain largely allergic to the charms of Ferrier.

And yet … and yet … it remains something of a miracle that it survives at all. It was indeed the first performance in the UK of this magnificent symphony and was recorded off air on acetate discs by James Agate. Those unique discs turned up in a second hand shop in Manchester and were bought for a song by Jon Tolansky, who gave them to the Music Preserved collection, now at the Borthwick Institute at the University of York.

BTW my old LP booklet for the Haitink reveals the members of the orchestra who provided such wonderful solos: Jo Juda (violin), Klaas Kos (posthorn) and Hans Maassen (trombone).

[Bryn]

I wonder if the Hinaufziehen marking in the 4th movement will come up as a qualifying feature. Rather more easily observed a la Rattle if using Viennese style instruments, I am given to understand. Abbado and (my go-to) Gielen passed the challenge to their respective oboe and cor angalis players to great effect, I feel. Of those who eschewed or did not consider the literal interpretatin of the term, Horenstein, Haitink and Bernstein spring to mind as directing particularly fine performances on record.

[Maclintick]

Well - that is what Mahler tells him to do, Pet. It's a very carefully calibrated set of dynamics for the last 12 bars: The Timps (both sets) are marked f throughout; the bassoons, celli, contrabassoon, and double basses (who have the same I - V - I - V "pounding" as the Timps throughout these last bars) are marked ff in the strings, and fff in the winds - so Mahler is keeping the Timps behind the winds and strings, supporting them (unlike the Timp "solo" of so many performances), and the expression mark for these last bars underlines this: Nicht mit roher kraft. Gesattigten edlen Ton ("Not with brute force - suffused with noble sound").

Meanwhile, The (8) Horns and Trombones (the Tuba is silent until the very last bar) are marked P; after 3 bars the horns raised to f, but the Trombones twice reminded "sempre P" to curb their enthusiasm - until the last three bars where they allowed a single f.

The upper woodwinds are marked P for three bars, the last one of which is given a hairpin diminuendo, before immediately (with a miniscule pause for breath marked in the score) given ff for the last 9 bars. The upper strings are marked ff throughout (holding the same tremolo D major triad) - and it's the four Trumpets who are given the greatest prominence in these bars (daah - da -deeee).

The careful nuances of these 12 bars require and repay close attention and rehearsal from the performers.

PS: - as, indeed, does the bar before these (on the previous page of the score, so easily overlooked by careless cleverclog commentators )

Thanks, FHG. Now that you've drawn my attention to it, it's pretty obvious that GM's detailed instructions to the timpanist should actually be inserted at fig. 32 i.e 13 bars before the end...not 12, as writ in my dog-eared UE edition.

While we're on the minutiae of GM's micro-management of expression & dynamics, a wonderful example occurs at fig. 26 of this movt, where he instructs the poor principal trumpet -- a guy who's been tearing it out for 90 minutes and likely has the tattered remnants of an embouchure -- to play his heartbreaking solo thus - "ppp zart hervortretend" (incredibly quiet, but nevertheless discernible as a soloistic moment) and "sehr getragen und gesangvoll" (plaintive and songful, the notes carrying through), but in addition, not content with communicating these impossible demands in German, he adds "molto portamento"..Sadistic, or what ?

I was at the 2007 Lucerne/Abbado Prom referred to by Petrushka, and will forever remember the heartstopping fragility of Reinhold Friedrich's playing at this point -- perfection.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

While we're on the minutiae of GM's micro-management of expression & dynamics, a wonderful example occurs at fig. 26 of this movt, where he instructs the poor principal trumpet -- a guy who's been tearing it out for 90 minutes and likely has the tattered remnants of an embouchure -- to play his heartbreaking solo thus - "ppp zart hervortretend" (incredibly quiet, but nevertheless discernible as a soloistic moment) and "sehr getragen und gesangvoll" (plaintive and songful, the notes carrying through), but in addition, not content with communicating these impossible demands in German, he adds "molto portamento"..Sadistic, or what ?

- AND with the bells of all three Trumpets (and Trombone) raised! (I'd probably have said "idealistic" rather than "sadistic", though )

[Petrushka]

Thanks to Ferney and Maclintick for these fascinating insights. I doubt if BaL will illustrate such points of detail and it only goes to show how much more illuminating our discussion on the Forum can be than the programme to which it relates. Yet in less than a couple of minutes of chat and illustration, a reviewer could demonstrate why a particular performance (in this case Abbado's) is precisely following Mahler's instructions and giving it an edge over its rivals.

[LMcD]

The reviewer will presumably be considering a short list - I wonder which criteria are most important when whittling down the original 150 or so.

[cloughie]

The reviewer will presumably be considering a short list - I wonder which criteria are most important when whittling down the original 150 or so.

You mean he’s not going to do 20 x 12 hour shifts to listen to them all?

[richardfinegold]

It is quite painful to report that the 1947 live Boult is in such primitive sound that it provides no competition with the marvellous Concertgebouw/Haitink recording. What's more, I remain largely allergic to the charms of Ferrier.

And yet … and yet … it remains something of a miracle that it survives at all. It was indeed the first performance in the UK of this magnificent symphony and was recorded off air on acetate discs by James Agate. Those unique discs turned up in a second hand shop in Manchester and were bought for a song by Jon Tolansky, who gave them to the Music Preserved collection, now at the Borthwick Institute at the University of York.

BTW my old LP booklet for the Haitink reveals the members of the orchestra who provided such wonderful solos: Jo Juda (violin), Klaas Kos (posthorn) and Hans Maassen (trombone).

Can’t comment on Sir Adrian, but I did listen to the Haitink/RCO yesterday, and it is fantastically played
I am remembering another recording from Alpie list, Levine/CSO with Marilyn Horne. This was my introduction to the work. I was working in a record store (remember those?) to help pay my way through Undergraduate in Ann Arbor. Someone returned this lp set as unplayable because it was significantly warped, and we used to return the defective records once a week, and as I was starting to discover Mahler I had a few days to take it home and play it. It did skip badly and had a ridiculous amount of surface noise, unacceptable for what was a full priced double album issue. I still can’t hear “o Mensch” without expecting to hear “O Men-O Men-O Men”...
When the same performance was issued on CD it was gratifying to be able to hear the glory of the playing and Marilyn Horne singing. By this time I had acquired Horenstein and Bernstein, and the Levine performance is just a tad earthbound in comparison, but still worth a listen if you haven’t banished Levine from your Musical Life

[Wolfram]

They also appeared at that year's Edinburgh Festival, same performers (I remember Michelle de Young's slightly wobbly rendition of, "Oh mensch", not quite reaching the starry heights of, say, Jessye Norman).

It's the Mahler symphony I've seen in concert most often - and I somehow seem to have acquired in excess of 50 recordings of it

Wow! 50 recordings - that's mightily impressive. I keep showing this post to my wife who is forever complaining that I have too many CDs. I can muster 12 recordings of the 3rd - 3 of them by Haitink - and I whole heartedly agree with the generous appreciation on this thread for BH's various readings of this symphony. But I would like to put in a word of support for Raphael Kubelik though. As Mahler is taken on a journey around the world; to New York and Chicargo via Vienna, Munich, Berlin and Amsterdam, to my ears Kubelik always brings him back to the woods and fields of Bohemia. The older I get the more I've come to appreciate Kubelik's Mahler for its unforced and indistorted naturalness.

[silvestrione]

Thanks to Ferney and Maclintick for these fascinating insights. I doubt if BaL will illustrate such points of detail and it only goes to show how much more illuminating our discussion on the Forum can be than the programme to which it relates. Yet in less than a couple of minutes of chat and illustration, a reviewer could demonstrate why a particular performance (in this case Abbado's) is precisely following Mahler's instructions and giving it an edge over its rivals.

Pointing out the shortcomings of the programme before it's happened? That seems a mite unfair. I agree with you about the 'fascinating insights', however.

[Wolfram]

I can't imagine how the twofer format can begin to do justice to the scope of a work like the Mahler 3 and the range of recordings.

[mikealdren]

I can't imagine how the twofer format can begin to do justice to the scope of a work like the Mahler 3 and the range of recordings.

It won't. The programme has changed now and it's a guide to the piece as a whole that considers a (very) shortlist according to the reviewer's prejudices. Look at it as less of an 'Interpretations on Record' and more of a beginners guide in the fashionable chatty format.

[Master Jacques]

Pointing out the shortcomings of the programme before it's happened? That seems a mite unfair. I agree with you about the 'fascinating insights', however.

Given the previous "form" of the particular individual they've got lined up to spout about Mahler 3, I am tempted to add (naughtily) that it is only a mite unfair!

[LMcD]

It won't. The programme has changed now and it's a guide to the piece as a whole that considers a (very) shortlist according to the reviewer's prejudices. Look at it as less of an 'Interpretations on Record' and more of a beginners guide in the fashionable chatty format.

Who produces the shortlist - the producer, AMcG or the reviewer? And does such a narrow approach allow for at least some consideration of vintage, i.e. historically important, recordings?