BaL 2.11.2019/28.3.20 - Bach: Violin Concerto in E BWV 1042

[Sir Velo]

This is from the Quboz album description:
"Accompanying him, we find the wonderful Swiss ensemble il pomo d’oro (all lowercase)

Ah, like this you mean?

[BBMmk2]

Shame we don't have Star Trek Transporters to beam us down into each other's, and everyone else's, rooms....

The we might begin to understand....

But the experiences I had, hearing the same recording in different systems/rooms, was often fairly shocking ( revelatory not always in a good way - what some leave out, or add - even just changing out the preamp, on one memorable occasion...)

That be great!

[Beresford]

AS to the apparently vexed question about parts and players, this is from the Erato booklet....

il pomo d’oro
VIOLINS
Zefira Valova · Stefano Rossi · Claudio Rado (7–9)
VIOLA
Giulio D’Alessio
CELLO
Ludovico Minasi
DOUBLE BASS
Riccardo Coelati
HARPSICHORD
Federica Bianchi (1–6, 10–12) · Anna Fontana (7–9)

So, little or no difference to the NBS vid for this album.....The numbers refer to the movements of 1041/42/43/1056r...

Yes, but is there a conductor, or is it led from the harpsichord, or by Sato himself?

[jayne lee wilson]

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Yes, but is there a conductor, or is it led from the harpsichord, or by Sato himself?

The booklet notes don't specify the leader, but it really doesn't matter...given the remarkably free creativity of the performances, any or all of the instrumentalists may offer a new idea which the soloists/ensemble may take up...

This doesn't mean there isn't a musical leader at a given moment.... but from my own listening this seems wonderfully fluid and unfixed....

This is possibly why some find it hard to accept, get used to, etc.... and as I said earlier here, there is a certain paradox about recording such a reading, one that could easily be different the next day, and the day after that.....

I would direct you to the new Brahms D Minor Piano Concerto with Vogt and the Royal Northern Sinfonia; Vogt directs from the keyboard, and at first you may hear this as "from the front" (as I did)... but listen on, and hear how the orchestra create their own interpretation with him....

[doversoul1]

Yes, but is there a conductor, or is it led from the harpsichord, or by Sato himself?

On the CD cover Sir Velo posted, Zefira Valova is singled out which suggests that the ensemble is ‘led/directed by one of the violinists. Concerto Köln, or for that matter, many early music ensembles, often take this form when they have a soloist

jayne lee wilson

I think we need to abandon some 20thC performance-practice norms and ideas and let the players play, take it where they will....

I think you’ll find that most early music ensembles have either a director/conductor or a lead player. There are exceptions of course, especially in vocal ensembles, a notable one being Stile Antico.

[jayne lee wilson]

On the CD cover Sir Velo posted, Zefira Valova is singled out which suggests that the ensemble is ‘led’ by one of the violinists. Concerto Köln, or for that matter, many early music ensembles, often take this form when they have a soloist

Absolutely, but on this Erato album Valova is singled out mainly for being the other soloist in the D Minor Double-Violin Concerto BWV 1043 ("Solo Violin II" as per the booklet, tracks 7-9).

[doversoul1]

Absolutely, but on this Erato album Valova is singled out mainly for being the other soloist in the D Minor Double-Violin Concerto BWV 1043 ("Solo Violin II" as per the booklet, tracks 7-9).

...Concert master Zefira Valova leads the orchestra in various projects.

http://www.il-pomodoro.ch/orchestra/

The whole paragraph
The ensemble il pomo d’oro was founded in 2012. It is characterized by an authentic, dynamic interpretation of operas and instrumental works from the Baroque and Classical period. The musicians are all well-known specialists and are among the best in the field of historical performance practice. The ensemble so far worked with the conductors Riccardo Minasi, Maxim Emelyanychev, Stefano Montanari, George Petrou, Enrico Onofri and Francesco Corti. Concert master Zefira Valova leads the orchestra in various projects. Since 2016 Maxim Emelyanychev has been its chief conductor, and since 2019 Francesco Corti is principal guest conductor.

Sorry to spoil you dream but I have been following the ensemble almost from their day one in the UK. It has always been a ‘directed/led’ ensemble.

[jayne lee wilson]

"Spoil your dream", doversoul?
How bloody condescending, insulting and unnecessarily spiteful.....!
I was simply reporting the booklet-note detail...!

I'll keep my dream of creative music making as exemplified on this very album (Have you ACTUALLY LISTENED TO IT?).... whatever stupid bossy, rank-pulling pedants like you have to offer!

And to think all I come here for is to share the love of music! Oh for Gods Sake, ds!

So here's the copied booklet note.....

JOHANN SEBASTIAN BACH 1685–1750
Violin concerto No.1 in A minor, BWV 1041
1 I. Allegro moderato 3.50
2 II. Andante 5.08
3 III. Allegro assai 3.30
VIOLIN CONCERTO NO.2 IN E, BWV 1042
4 I. Allegro 8.00
5 II. Adagio 5.35
6 III. Allegro assai 2.39
CONCERTO FOR 2 VIOLINS IN D MINOR, BWV 1043
7 I. Vivace 3.40
8 II. Largo ma non tanto 5.51
9 III. Allegro 4.29
Zefira Valova solo violin II
VIOLIN CONCERTO NO. 5 IN G MINOR, BWV 1056R
reconst. Johann Nikolaus Forkel 1749–1818
10 I. Allegro 3.32
11 II. Largo 2.33
12 III. Presto 3.24
SHUNSKE SATO violin
ZEFIRA VALOVA violin II (7–9) IL POMO D’ORO

There is nothing else in the notes to indicate leaders, violin/harpsichord or otherwise....

AND THAT'S ALL FROM ME FOR TODAY! Which must be what you want (apart from my leaving permanently - what is your problem with me ds? Oh, I'm SO SORRY I never had a single lesson in music! SO SORRY I didn't follow the Pomos from "day one".... ! )

[doversoul1]

I apologise if I upset you. Maybe I should have included . Your ideas about musicians performing with freedom and creativity etc. is a lovely thought but I doubt that’s all there is to it in practice. Besides, Beresford was asking for a piece of information and not how s/he should listen to the music.

According to Beresford, the Quboz album describes the ensemble as a Swiss ensemble which is as accurate (ed. meaningless) as describing the European Union Baroque Orchestra as a British ensemble when it was based in the UK*. My guess is, whoever writes for Quboz is as good as those who write for Radio 3’s website. I don't think you need to feel responsible for Quboz’s shortcomings. The information I provided was from the ensemble’s website.
*The founder Riccardo Minasi is Italian and the original members were, I guess, predominantly Italian and Italian based. The ensemble is currently based in Zurich.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

[ardcarp]

[Beresford]

I would direct you to the new Brahms D Minor Piano Concerto with Vogt and the Royal Northern Sinfonia; Vogt directs from the keyboard, and at first you may hear this as "from the front" (as I did)... but listen on, and hear how the orchestra create their own interpretation with him....

Thanks, Jayne. The Brahms PC is new to me - I'll look up that recording. With string quartets I relish the way the lead is passed around, and responded to.

For 50 years the Bach violin concertos have been for me a source of ebullient joy, and it is fascinating to read on this forum what people like about different performances, as well as the effects of different recording practices and hifi systems.

[Goon525]

Funnily enough, I just listened (albeit in the car) to a Gramophone podcast which is an interview with Lars Vogt about his new Brahms PC1, and had decided to add it to my 'listen soon' list. With Jayne's recommendation on top of that, it's now in the 'listen very soon' list. It's a favourite concerto of mine anyway, I even prefer it to the second.

[Goon525]

Funnily enough, I just listened (albeit in the car) to a Gramophone podcast which is an interview with Lars Vogt about his new Brahms PC1, and had decided to add it to my 'listen soon' list. With Jayne's recommendation on top of that, it's now in the 'listen very soon' list. It's a favourite concerto of mine anyway, I even prefer it to the second.

And now I’ve listened (and I realise I should probably post this elsewhere, it having nothing to do with a Bach violin concerto), and I thoroughly enjoyed it. It seemed to me very much an interpretation for the 21st century, sounding quite different somehow to, say, Giles or Kovacevich, to name two distinguished pianists in this repertoire. I can’t remember hearing the drama of the opening ritornello brought out so effectively, and Vogt as pianist does not let us down. Well worth a listen.

[Goon525]

Going back to the Bach violin concerto in E, has anyone else had a listen to the new Kati Debretzeni with JEG? It’s on SDG but available via the usual streaming providers? I just gave it a (metaphorical) spin, and it sounds to me like a contender. Haven’t seen any reviews yet, and would be interested in a second opinion. Presumably too new for consideration on BaL.