BaL 2.11.2019/28.3.20 - Bach: Violin Concerto in E BWV 1042

[jayne lee wilson]

Prompted by Jayne, I’ve just listened to the Sato, and I’m really surprised that neither she nor Charlotte Gardner in her rather over the-top Gramophone review mentioned the extremely reverberant recording venue. (Like Jayne, I’m listening via Qobuz Hi Res.) it really makes it sound like quite a large orchestra, rather than one to a part, and is rather cloudy. For me (because, like Jayne, I think SQ matters!), that’s enough of a minus to rule this one out given the strength of the opposition. Currently, I think I’d vote for Faust, though certainly don’t object to Podger.

How are you listening? On my usual Qobuz/Audirvana+/ ATC/Harbeth C7IIs system (from 2014 Mac Pro via filtered/regenned USB, all redundant functions off) it doesn't sound like that at all: very well-balanced, not at all over-reverberant...lively, but also very immediate, close, physically in touch with the performers...
I usually set Audirvana to Integer 2 mode, which does emphasise warmth to some extent, but the sound balance doesn't change fundamentally on the more neutral Integer 1 - just a little more spacious and image-specific ....

Cloudy?! Golly Gosh....Every detail is clear, but very natural - and obviously a small, intimate chamber group (!), into which the soloist moves, then out again, more solo...
Shame the notes weren't more specific about the venue "Lonigo, Italy".... anyone know where they might have recorded it there?

You obviously have a very different system balance from my own, which is largely based on Studio Monitoring equipment, but probably warm side of neutral... (usually replayed at highish levels in a 9x6m room with some acoustic irregularities (bay, inglenook etc)... but this recording sounds fine on the mini-tivoli in the bedroom, and the Denon soundbar under the TV.......)....

And I don't find Charlotte Gardner OTT at all... fully and joyfully at one with her!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thanks for post 57 Ferney, especially for the youngsters playing their partitas or whatever.

It's wonderful, isn't it! And what gets me every time is how these excited kids in the video from the Masterclass turn into these serious, mature artists when they come to perform the Music. I so wish Gamba could have seen this.

I'd just add to your HIPP comments (and agree it's an ever-changing scene) that aside from academic scholarship, the reconstruction and widespread playing of 18th- century string instruments has 'taught' players things about bowing, phrasing and so on.

- fascinating as the books frequently are, the real vitality is demonstrated in the Music-Making (and, as you remind me with "reconstruction", in the instrument-making) that results.

[edashtav]

Thanks for post 57 Ferney, especially for the youngsters playing their partitas or whatever.
[…]

I agree, Ferney's back on top form!

I listened to Sato on Sunday Evening and that led to similar thoughts to Ferney's: Sato's HIPP may be 1PpP but such rhythmic vitality desported in a lively acoustic aided by a certain freedom and artistic confidence produced moments of lushness that caused me to blush. Yes, I was tickled pink.

New Liquor in the old Hip flask?

[Maclintick]

Thanks for that - but I don't read scores anything like competently, and don't have any here...I do it all by ear, by listening sheer.....
... which movement is this please?

It's movt 1 -- & see Ferney's #46 where he identifies Sato's mannerism of disrupting the flow by lengthening notes as a "niggle" which would be irritating on CD....incidentally, I find the sound exceptionally good even on Spotify (JD Labs ODAC + Sennheiser 600s)

[Maclintick]

New Liquor in the old Hip flask?

Perhaps, Ed..with the addition of Marmite, if some are to be believed. BUT, in all the discussion of HIPP-ness, I'm a little surprised that there's no mention on the Early Music thread of Sir Nicholas Kenyon's new 6-part R3 series on the evolution of the HIPP phenomenon, laboriously entitled "The Future of the Past - Early Music Today - Pioneers of the Future". So far we've had ep.1, and Sir N has motored through from Dolmetsch nearly a century ago to David Munrow in the late 60s. If it used to be the case that the BBC's mission was "To Inform, Educate, & Entertain", then I have to report that Sir N succeeded on the first two counts...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

BUT, in all the discussion of HIPP-ness, I'm a little surprised that there's no mention on the Early Music thread of Sir Nicholas Kenyon's new 6-part R3 series on the evolution of the HIPP phenomenon, laboriously entitled "The Future of the Past - Early Music Today - Pioneers of the Future". So far we've had ep.1, and Sir N has motored through from Dolmetsch nearly a century ago to David Munrow in the late 60s. If it used to be the case that the BBC's mission was "To Inform, Educate, & Entertain", then I have to report that Sir N succeeded on the first two counts...

"No mention" is a little inaccurate - three relevant posts on the dedicated Thread:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?20934-The-Future-of-the-Past-Early-Music-Today-1-6-3rd-November

(In fact, your comments might well be appreciated there, too )

[jayne lee wilson]

https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/bwv/bwv-1042/

I love watching the interaction of the players - their playing has an infectious joyfulness.

Just a little confusion here....this video is NOT the recording released last year on the Erato CD/hi-res stream, which is with il pomo d'oro, Recorded: 12–18.II.2018, Lonigo, Italy; so the earlier 2015 video fhg referred to must be different again....

Listening to the NBS allofbach one in the link, it sounds very different, both in balance and interpretation (inferior, more distant balance/resolution, ensemble playing less distinctive, soloist less free or imaginative, with many different details) than the 24/88.2 Qobuz Stream/CD I've been listening to & adoring since last year. In fact the NBS video recording is pretty dull alongside the Erato release, whose impact stuns your attention...)

Given Sato's and the d'oro's great freedom of creative approach (and very especially if you are critiquing his "mannerism" (which I don't hear as such & commented upon in #49) in a completely different performance), it would be foolhardy to imagine that if you've heard one, you've heard 'em all...

(For the avoidance of doubt, this is the one I refer to on this thread & CG reviewed in the Gramophone....
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/ba.../vl9fp8m2zwgkb)

[Maclintick]

"No mention" is a little inaccurate - three relevant posts on the dedicated Thread:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?20934-The-Future-of-the-Past-Early-Music-Today-1-6-3rd-November

(In fact, your comments might well be appreciated there, too )

Doh ! How did I miss this ? Thanks, FHG. I'll post on the appropriate..

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Just a little confusion here....this video is NOT the recording released last year on the Erato CD/hi-res stream, which is with il pomo d'oro, Recorded: 12–18.II.2018, Lonigo, Italy; so the earlier 2015 video fhg referred to must be different again....

You're correct - it's the Netherlands Bach Society Live performance that Beresford referred to in #34 from which I partially quoted when giving the Link. The remainder of the quotation read -

He is playing with the usual AoB musicians - fewer than Pomo D'Oro - almost one to a part, that the reviewer liked so much (me too). It makes the "orchestral" parts much clearer, as Rachel Podger says in her heart-warming video on the Presto site.

Sato's Golden Delicious recording is also available (encrusted with advertising barnacles before each movement, which comes on separate videos) "provided to YouTube by Warner Classics":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ljj9yBRnJE&list=RD4ljj9yBRnJE&start_radio=1&t=0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fat6ndyM-OE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4O2KrCXazQ

[jayne lee wilson]

Maybe peel the barnacles off the apples...don't eat them, put them back on a rock....Earth needs them!
Thanks fhg. Shame about the YT lossy codec, but at least it is the one....!

AS to the apparently vexed question about parts and players, this is from the Erato booklet....

il pomo d’oro
VIOLINS
Zefira Valova · Stefano Rossi · Claudio Rado (7–9)
VIOLA
Giulio D’Alessio
CELLO
Ludovico Minasi
DOUBLE BASS
Riccardo Coelati
HARPSICHORD
Federica Bianchi (1–6, 10–12) · Anna Fontana (7–9)

So, little or no difference to the NBS vid for this album.....The numbers refer to the movements of 1041/42/43/1056r...

[Goon525]

How are you listening? On my usual Qobuz/Audirvana+/ ATC/Harbeth C7IIs system (from 2014 Mac Pro via filtered/regenned USB, all redundant functions off) it doesn't sound like that at all: very well-balanced, not at all over-reverberant...lively, but also very immediate, close, physically in touch with the performers...
I usually set Audirvana to Integer 2 mode, which does emphasise warmth to some extent, but the sound balance doesn't change fundamentally on the more neutral Integer 1 - just a little more spacious and image-specific ....

Cloudy?! Golly Gosh....Every detail is clear, but very natural - and obviously a small, intimate chamber group (!), into which the soloist moves, then out again, more solo...
Shame the notes weren't more specific about the venue "Lonigo, Italy".... anyone know where they might have recorded it there?

You obviously have a very different system balance from my own, which is largely based on Studio Monitoring equipment, but probably warm side of neutral... (usually replayed at highish levels in a 9x6m room with some acoustic irregularities (bay, inglenook etc)... but this recording sounds fine on the mini-tivoli in the bedroom, and the Denon soundbar under the TV.......)....

And I don't find Charlotte Gardner OTT at all... fully and joyfully at one with her!

I'm not sure comparative boasting about systems is altogether helpful, but for what it's worth, mine is Linn Akurate DSM (with Katalyst); Vitus RS-101 power amp; Audiovector SR3 Avantgarde Arrete speakers. So mostly Danish. Plus power conditioning from AudioQuest. I'd describe it as extremely detailed and revealing, perhaps one notch on the cool side of neutral. I use Roon which integrates my owned collection with Qobuz, and which works perfectly with the Linn front end.

Roon actually includes reviews on many issues - including the one we're debating. Honestly, I don't place much store by them, and anyway they're often anonymous. But I can't help resisting calling up their review of this release, because it's a fair indication I haven't made the reverberant acoustic up!

"Judged by the period instrumentation, the small orchestra of strings and continuo, the historically informed interpretations of violinists Shunske Sato and Zefira Valova, and the ensemble Il Pomo d'Oro, this recording of Bach's violin concertos will likely interest connoisseur of performances in the Baroque style, as well as casual listeners. However, because the venue for this recording is extremely resonant and the audio seemingly boosted in the mix, a first impression is that the ensemble is twice as big as it really is, and that the textures are inadvertently muddled, neither of which is expected of a well-produced recording by early music standards. If listeners can get past the acoustics and actually hear the nuances in Sato's playing....."

I have no idea who wrote this (and I don't know what 'audio seemingly boosted in the mix' actually means), but I rest my case.

[ardcarp]

I can only make my own judgement on the splendid link given by Ferney in post # 47, i.e. https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/bwv/bwv-1042/
If this is anything like the recording you mention, Goon, then your comment

it's a fair indication I haven't made the reverberant acoustic up!

is true. There is a reverberant acoustic. However, I didn't detect anything faux about the sound, and moreover, I (and Mrs A who enjoyed watching it with me last night) could follow every line with great clarity.

[Master Jacques]

There is a reverberant acoustic. However, I didn't detect anything faux about the sound, and moreover, I (and Mrs A who enjoyed watching it with me last night) could follow every line with great clarity.

I sampled this, and to be honest I didn't like it much. Sato's agogic distortions and flighty accelerandos on running quaver passages soon had me sighing with irritation, and all that happy, satisfied smiling between the players produced no sense of joie de vivre, for this crabbed listener at least.

The problem with the reverberant acoustic (when we're watching the video) is the sense of mismatch with the hall in which it's taking place. Low ceilinged, diminutive, packed and intimate - a lovely venue - but the sound gives the impression we're in a rather empty Bridgewater Hall. I think it's this mismatch rather than the sound quality itself - as you say, every line is just about there - which makes the engineering seem doctored.

[ardcarp]

Chacun, etc

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Chacun, etc

That's here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnK6R5ej6Hg&vl=en