BaL 2.11.2019/28.3.20 - Bach: Violin Concerto in E BWV 1042

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I've mentioned Sato's habit of "squeezing" particular notes in a phrase on the All of Bach Thread - and how for me it "niggles" the performance. I think he just about gets away with it when I'm watching the video of the performance (which was a lovely Christmas present back in 2015 - missing from the Forum Thread) - but with just the sound, I do find it an irritating mannerism that tugs at the momentum of the Music, so I wouldn't want to buy the CD. It's interesting to note, too, that he doesn't (so far) indulge in this type of playing in his more recent playing of the solo Sonatas & Partitas.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Shunsuke Sato's version can be heard and seen on the All_of_Bach website.

https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/bwv/bwv-1042/

I love watching the interaction of the players - their playing has an infectious joyfulness.

[Maclintick]

I think the excerpts Mark Lowther chose to play illustrated the points he wished to make perfectly! Let's not forget, the Perlman was a famous recording in its day, as testified by AMG. The syrupy textures by which it was characterised exemplified the point about non HiPP performances. I'm not familiar with the Oistakh but if it is as lithe as you suggest, that would rather have undermined the argument! Likewise, the Podger illustrated the whole point of his thesis which was that the soloist should beprimus inter pares in order to allow all the other musical arguments to emerge from the orchestral texture. I found the recording extremely realistic when sampling it on Qobuz, and the line of thought compelling and well reasoned. In fact it was instructive to find AMG reduced to playing a bit part, the general enthusiast being made aware of musical points and nodding wide eyed agreement as each point was skillfully elucidated by ML. If we are to have twofers, this is surely the way to do it!

I'd agree that, in the main, Mark Lowther did an excellent job & that the excerpts he chose to play illustrated the points he wished to make,
except his near-implication that the Perlman/ECO disc exemplified what one could expect to hear in the dark ages of non-HIPP 1972 is unfair in consideration of Oistrakh's classic 1962 DG recording. I wouldn't describe that performance as "lithe" (did I - where ?) , at least in comparison to the best modern HIPP versions, & the orchestral contribution is occasionally variable, but it's by no means as "syruppy" as the 1972 EMI disc. I've no complaint with ML's final choices, & if I decide to supplement the Freiburgers with a one-to-a-part version, it'll be Brecon Baroque's.

[jayne lee wilson]

Of course this is subjective. Don't get me wrong, Sato's playing is a wonder, technically and expressively, but one person's "freedom of expression" or fleeting inspiration might for others become an intrusive idiosyncrasy, crossing a line by drawing attention to the player rather than JSB in a way that could be perceived as "self-regarding". For me, Sato displays a general tendency to over-egg with agogic accents or note-lengthenings which interrupt the flow, as here just after the soloist's initial entry, where he lingers distractingly on the C# semiquaver at the start of the next bar, to the detriment of forward motion.. (again, subjective'n'all, but you wanted a specific example)




I find there's enough to delight and marvel at in this work without performers adding extra levels of distraction, as it were, & while
there's a huge amount to admire in Sato & Pomo D'Oro's playing, my preference is for something slightly more objective.
Trawling further on Spotify, I found Freiburg Baroque's 2013 version on HM rather more the ticket, while still being expressive and
HIPP-ly ornamented.

Thanks for that - but I don't read scores anything like competently, and don't have any here...I do it all by ear, by listening sheer.....
... which movement is this please?
Those very features you specify are, of course, just what I most love about this recording, the sheer adventurousness, the disturbance or holding-back, what will happen next?.... then the rushing on, then casual and light once again...I've lived with these recordings for nearly a year, and still don't find them suffering pall upon my memory or ear.....

SQ does matter - hi-res/CD reveals tonal/accentual/phrasal variants and subtleties that lossy codecs (even at 320 kbps) can miss, or make harder to pick up or truly appreciate....

.... like/dislike for sure, but I love to hear soloists being endlessly free and creative, especially in very familiar baroque/classical works at this point in our late, late, overdubbed, rerecorded, recycled culture - I feel it is in the spirit of the concerto tradition, and I'd love it to go even further...

"Drawing attention to the soloist rather than JSB" - surely part of the essence of the concerto concept, composer and soloist creatively interact (a tradition which may have been obscured by the Grand Romantic Concerto Concept from the 19th and after), see above, but for me it just makes JSB's music come to life freshly, made new... go on, show off, make the imaginarily present composer, the ghost in the front row, grin and giggle at your mischief...

I love the feeling that Sato and the Golden Apples could play the concertos tomorrow and the day after, and play it differently each time....
(Just as other composers like Mozart certainly would have done with their own works.....there's often an inescapable paradox here about setting down a recording...but that's the age we live in... where will its fluctuating technical overdrive takes us next...?)

[Goon525]

Prompted by Jayne, I’ve just listened to the Sato, and I’m really surprised that neither she nor Charlotte Gardner in her rather over the-top Gramophone review mentioned the extremely reverberant recording venue. (Like Jayne, I’m listening via Qobuz Hi Res.) it really makes it sound like quite a large orchestra, rather than one to a part, and is rather cloudy. For me (because, like Jayne, I think SQ matters!), that’s enough of a minus to rule this one out given the strength of the opposition. Currently, I think I’d vote for Faust, though certainly don’t object to Podger.

[ardcarp]

https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/bwv/bwv-1042/

This is going to be Marmite isn't it? I've just watched, and without giving critical reasons (apart from one bum continuo note in Mov't 1) I just LOVE IT. Give me Sato, OPPP, lively acoustic and all.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Surely "OVpP"? ("One Violin per Part"? - or member of said family, of course.)

[vinteuil]

Surely "OVpP"? ("One Violin per Part"? - or member of said family, of course.)

... what's wrong with OPPP - one person per part - I mean if it's OVPP - one violin per part - what's to prevent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6H2oM1AUHo

.

[Pulcinella]

I took it to mean One Player Per Part!

[cloughie]

I took it to mean One Player Per Part!

Converting it from a concerto to a quintet or whatever size of chamber group.

[ardcarp]

I took it to mean One Player Per Part!

'zackly. OVPP is usually used to mean one voice per part in choral music.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Interesting that in following this thread, an over-arching aspect seems to the way performing practices and styles change, like fashion - for a period one style is 'popular' (I don't like the word, but it's apt) then that style becomes démodé.... and another style/practice gradually appears.
Leads me to the question; will HPP / HIPP or whetever, one day become itself démodé ? Just a thought, not an opinion on HIPP / HIPP

Some overlap with the HIPP Thread here, visnick. I think that there is a danger of thinking of Historically Informed Performance Practice as a single "school" of thought - and, possibly, one that is "recent". I think that it is more of a "campus" of schools of thought - going back from Podger and Sato today (themselves so very different in their similar approaches as to suggest that there is more than a single "style" involved here) through Pinnock and Linde in the '80s (ditto - very different approaches to the Music), Harnoncourt and Leonhardt in the '70s, and Marriner, Munrow, and Leppard in the '60s, Munchinger, Dart, Richter, & deller in the '50s - and back to Landowska and Dolmetsch 100 years ago. All of them offering different ways of approaching Music from older periods from the large-scale reorchestrations that were prevelant when they were working.

It's an ever-changing attitude - constantly revaluing itself, ever seeking more "new" Information from History to guide their approach to the Music - not a single phenomenon, a passing fad that younger generations of performers can get fed up of. Just see here how excited these teenaged violinists are at their first encounter with instruments from the time of Bach, and what they enpower them to achieve with the Music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=i8UNFbGzFMM

... that sense of excitement, discovery, empowerment - that's what attracts Musicians to making Music in these ways.

(And, proof of the pudding, excerpts from the kids' own [astonishing - a couple of them are only 13!!!!] performances of the Bach works for solo violin can be heard in the links provided in post #930 here:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?11168-Something-for-a-Friday-All-of-Bach&p=760841#post760841

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... what's wrong with OPPP - one person per part - I mean if it's OVPP - one violin per part - what's to prevent

I took it to mean One Player Per Part!

'zackly. OVPP is usually used to mean one voice per part in choral music.

I think that my has been overlooked, folks!

[ardcarp]

Thanks for post 57 Ferney, especially for the youngsters playing their partitas or whatever.

I'd just add to your HIPP comments (and agree it's an ever-changing scene) that aside from academic scholarship, the reconstruction and widespread playing of 18th- century string instruments has 'taught' players things about bowing, phrasing and so on.

[Pulcinella]

I think that my has been overlooked, folks!

Oh: I thought that the wink applied to the 'said family' part of your comment.