BaL 2.11.2019/28.3.20 - Bach: Violin Concerto in E BWV 1042

[doversoul1]

I take your point. I'd just say that a newbie who fell in love with the work would be unlikely to rush out and find a vinyl of Heifetz or someone like that. I'd also suggest while many R3 programmes are aimed at a wider (younger?) music-loving audience, there is a place for the occasional more considered slot...such as BaL.

Those who are new to the work and would like to learn about it more are more than a little interested in how the work was performed back in the days of Heifetz. Targeting these listeners does not mean dumbing down the programme by any means. Besides, isn’t the name of the programme more rhetorical than literal? And I dare say that including much technical details does not necessarily make a programme more intelligent.

Sorry to keep on about it, ardcarp but I am saying all this from the point of someone who was a newbie not so long ago.

[ardcarp]

I think along much the same lines really, so we're not miles apart. I think my point is, with all recent BaLs, the lack of a considered scripit leads to much verbal waffling, repetition and general time-wasting. Without it, far more extracts could be played. If explanation of the basic trends in HIPP is needed, then a sentence such as, "Based on the research of scholars, ensembles are smaller and period instruments are often used used leading to lighter textures. Tempi are generally faster. Ornamentation is much more common."

I've just read that aloud to myself and it takes 10 seconds.

[BBMmk2]

I quite enjoyed this BaL. Like two blokes in a pub having a chat. Be rather good imo! Thoroughly enjoyed this. Listening now to to chosen one. Very good indeed. I might buy it!

[Beresford]

Shunske Sato/Pomo D'Oro any mention....? I think it's wonderful, shame if it was left out.....

Shunsuke Sato's version can be heard and seen on the All_of_Bach website. He is playing with the usual AoB musicians - fewer than Pomo D'Oro - almost one to a part, that the reviewer liked so much (me too). It makes the "orchestral" parts much clearer, as Rachel Podger says in her heart-warming video on the Presto site.

Sato is a dynamic soloist with backing group, like Isabel Faust, but with Rachel Podger I hear more of the little notes and the band. Love all three.

Rachel Podger's version can be obtained in high-res DSD computer format from nativedsd.com, if you have a DSD DAC and no SACD player, or as a 24/192 download from Qobuz.

[Barbirollians]

I bought the Sato after its rave Gramophone review . I was rather underwhelmed .

[Maclintick]

I bought the Sato after its rave Gramophone review . I was rather underwhelmed .

I sampled it on Spotify, & rather agree...it struck me as a bit narcissistic.Can't make my mind up on this one. Podger -- too recessed in the recording balance, though her playing undeniably beautiful -- Ibragimova rather overpowered by the theorbo -- Faust very good, but the E major on the same CD seemed plagued by intonation problems in the band (not IF !). When I turn to the classic Oistrakh on DG which I grew up with, many of my reservations evaporate. Quite why Mark Lowther chose the execrable Perlman version to illustrate non-HIPPness is a mystery...

[jayne lee wilson]

Could you give a specific example of the narcissism in the playing itself?

I still love the Sato performances, playing right here, right now, for their sheer freedom of expression - in the phrase, their dynamic subtleties and their endless tonal & coloristic beauties...
Sato might take the music anywhere, any moment, as if he were the composer-performer who feels no need to stick to his own script....and the wonderful chamber-music-sized pomo d'oro take inspiration from him, and take wing on their own flights of musical freedom and imagination, a golden band of soloists themselves - of which Sato often becomes an indistinguishable member.

Now intense and forceful, then fun or off-the-cuff at a flick of the wrist, the players seem to dance as much as they sing. Never all-too-beautiful: often fiercer, earthy and gutty - that D minor finale!

I think it's uniquely thrilling, and the 24/88.2 sound brings you vividly into its living presence...

[cloughie]

... a very good point. Actually an essential point : too easy for those who know the terrain to forget that (heureusement!) there are many coming up for whom all of this is new, unexplored.

And for those of us who are more up to speed (ho ho) - always instructive to be reminded how leaden performances could be c. 1972, even with performers of the calibre of Itzhak Perlman, Daniel Barenboim, the ECO...

.

Leaden or luxuriant - it’s all in the ear of the listener. It is possible to listen to the old and the new without discarding either!

[Sir Velo]

I Quite why Mark Lowther chose the execrable Perlman version to illustrate non-HIPPness is a mystery...

I think the excerpts Mark Lowther chose to play illustrated the points he wished to make perfectly! Let's not forget, the Perlman was a famous recording in its day, as testified by AMG. The syrupy textures by which it was characterised exemplified the point about non HiPP performances. I'm not familiar with the Oistakh but if it is as lithe as you suggest, that would rather have undermined the argument! Likewise, the Podger illustrated the whole point of his thesis which was that the soloist should beprimus inter pares in order to allow all the other musical arguments to emerge from the orchestral texture. I found the recording extremely realistic when sampling it on Qobuz, and the line of thought compelling and well reasoned. In fact it was instructive to find AMG reduced to playing a bit part, the general enthusiast being made aware of musical points and nodding wide eyed agreement as each point was skillfully elucidated by ML. If we are to have twofers, this is surely the way to do it!

[visualnickmos]

Interesting that in following this thread, an over-arching aspect seems to the way performing practices and styles change, like fashion - for a period one style is 'popular' (I don't like the word, but it's apt) then that style becomes démodé.... and another style/practice gradually appears.

Leads me to the question; will HPP / HIPP or whetever, one day become itself démodé ? Just a thought, not an opinion on HIPP / HIPP

[Bryn]

Interesting that in following this thread, an over-arching aspect seems to the way performing practices and styles change, like fashion - for a period one style is 'popular' (I don't like the word, but it's apt) then that style becomes démodé.... and another style/practice gradually appears.

Leads me to the question; will HPP / HIPP or whetever, one day become itself démodé ? Just a thought, not an opinion on HIPP / HIPP

As Mr. Wilde's Gwendolen said, "In matters of grave importance, style, not sincerity, is the vital thing".

[cloughie]

Interesting that in following this thread, an over-arching aspect seems to the way performing practices and styles change, like fashion - for a period one style is 'popular' (I don't like the word, but it's apt) then that style becomes démodé.... and another style/practice gradually appears.

Leads me to the question; will HPP / HIPP or whetever, one day become itself démodé ? Just a thought, not an opinion on HIPP / HIPP

No it will evolve to be the HIPP of the day!

[Sir Velo]

-- Ibragimova rather overpowered by the theorbo --

A violin overpowered by a theorbo - that must surely be a first!

[zola]

A violin overpowered by a theorbo - that must surely be a first!

It would be except that it wasn't a theorbo it was a lute, and the overpowering was the result of the producer's mix.

[Maclintick]

Could you give a specific example of the narcissism in the playing itself?

Of course this is subjective. Don't get me wrong, Sato's playing is a wonder, technically and expressively, but one person's "freedom of expression" or fleeting inspiration might for others become an intrusive idiosyncrasy, crossing a line by drawing attention to the player rather than JSB in a way that could be perceived as "self-regarding". For me, Sato displays a general tendency to over-egg with agogic accents or note-lengthenings which interrupt the flow, as here just after the soloist's initial entry, where he lingers distractingly on the C# semiquaver at the start of the next bar, to the detriment of forward motion.. (again, subjective'n'all, but you wanted a specific example)




I find there's enough to delight and marvel at in this work without performers adding extra levels of distraction, as it were, & while
there's a huge amount to admire in Sato & Pomo D'Oro's playing, my preference is for something slightly more objective.
Trawling further on Spotify, I found Freiburg Baroque's 2013 version on HM rather more the ticket, while still being expressive and
HIPP-ly ornamented.