BaL 18.02.12 - Bach Goldberg Variations

[ardcarp]

...and Christopher Robin's oft repeated dictum that it was time for bed (I now realise) was because he couldn't wait to be lulled by the Goldbergs.

[Dr Owl]

Gould of course also recorded the Goldbergs in 1955 when he was in his early twenties and possibly not a recognised eccentric...

Indeed he did, and I didn't mean to disparage him. I'm sorry if it seemed that way. Gould was a virtuoso of genius, not just of talent; by all accounts his 1955 recording was the most influential in the 20th century.

In 1954 he was an eccentric who ignored prevailing orthodoxies. In 1956 he was a recognized eccentric who ignored prevailing orthodoxies.

Rather than Gould, my target was the dead hand of legalism that infected some parts of the Early Music Movement in the 1960s. What had started as a joyous quest for the closest approach to the original sound was turned into a rigid orthodoxy ... a set of rules as to how a piece must be performed. Breaching these would bring forth the wrath of Beckmesser and could damage your career. There cannot be more than one or two piano recordings of the Goldbergs from the 1970s. Gould and Tureck could safely ignore the prevailing orthodoxy. It took more confidence for Schiff to do so.

[Bryn]

" ... transcribing [the virtuoso variations 5, 8, 14, 20 and 26] for another medium is useless and silly”

Does that mean he's being "useless and silly" by playing them on a pianoforte, a percussive string instrument, rather than a plucked one.

[rauschwerk]

Does MP3 work with harpsichords? I thought that poorly done it could lead to horrible results, though note my wording. Is it possible to do it well?

The DG website has lossless downloads of the Decca catalogue, and the Rousset compilation can be had in FLAC format for £16.49. Personally I'd go for that to be on the safe side.

[John Skelton]

There cannot be more than one or two piano recordings of the Goldbergs from the 1970s.

According to this http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/BWV988-Rec4.htm there were 13 piano versions (if a Stainway is a piano ) out of 29 recordings in the 1970s. And there's one played on a Kurzweil 250 Digital Synthesizer.

[ardcarp]

What had started as a joyous quest for the closest approach to the original sound was turned into a rigid orthodoxy ... a set of rules as to how a piece must be performed.

Owl. That sentence struck such a chord with me! And it has become apparent that the rules change decade by decade. That does not stop the prevailing thought police looking down their noses at heretics. (A slightly mixed metaphor, but you know what I mean.)

This probably shows my age, but the 'joyous quest' for me, as a student, co-incided with the very early days of Munrow, Hogwood and Bowman who brought a joy and verve lacking in the pioneering, worthy but slightly dull Dolmetsch days. Anyone who rubishes Munrow's work as not quite kosher (O God, another metaphor) gets short shrift from me.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Owl. That sentence struck such a chord with me! And it has become apparent that the rules change decade by decade. That does not stop the prevailing thought police looking down their noses at heretics. (A slightly mixed metaphor, but you know what I mean.)

Not sure that I do, ardy: who are (/were?) these "thought police"? Hogwood? Pinnock? Kuijken? Harnoncourt? Leonhardt? Parrot? Rifkin? Brüggen? Me?? Leonhardt's comments about playing Bach on the Piano are as ill-considered as Schiff's about playing them on the Harpsichord: does that make Schiff a "thought policeman" of the "anti-HIPP mafia"?

There are all sorts of myths that have emerged about performers, listeners and scholars who want to hear the Music of earlier centuries played in conditions that their composers might have expected. The ridiculous notion that there has ever been "a rigid orthodoxy" is one of these myths, and, as is the case with myths, such tend to cloud judgement and perception away from fact, leading to inaccurate statements like "There cannot be more than one or two piano recordings of the Goldbergs from the 1970s". Quite why some people need to believe such myths would be fascinating, but irrelevant to the performance and enjoyment of the Music.

There are listeners who cannot stand the sound of "Period Performance", and those who similarly cannot stomach modern instruments playing olde Music. Fine; both groups are joyfully catered by performances and recordings. But most people I know take the attitude shown by Kenyon on this BaL: there are great (and dreadful!) examples of both practices, and we are lucky to live at a time when such a richness of approaches is so readily available.

[amateur51]

But most people I know take the attitude shown by Kenyon on this BaL: there are great (and dreadful!) examples of both practices, and we are lucky to live at a time when such a richness of approaches is so readily available.

[rkyburz]

Too bad I wasn't member of this forum when this was discussed! May I still throw in a question "post mortem"?
Now that most of you (at least the "harpsichord fraction") must be equipped with the Rousset recording — has any of you ventured comparing that with Ottavio Dantone's recent recording? I don't have Rousset (yet), but I have Leonhardt (1965 and 1978), Koopman, Landowska, Dantone, and Gould (1954, 1955, 1982), and Schiff ...

[Richard Tarleton]

Too bad I wasn't member of this forum when this was discussed! May I still throw in a question "post mortem"?
Now that most of you (at least the "harpsichord fraction") must be equipped with the Rousset recording — has any of you ventured comparing that with Ottavio Dantone's recent recording? I don't have Rousset (yet), but I have Leonhardt (1965 and 1978), Koopman, Landowska, Dantone, and Gould (1954, 1955, 1982), and Schiff ...

Which Schiff?

Your post led me out of curiosity to Amazon, and to this impenetrable review - perhaps you or some other MBer quicker on the uptake than me can tell me what it's all about

I'm open to more harpsichord versions - should this be the one? I already have a terrific performance which nobody seems to have heard of by David Wright (who is currently the harpsichordist with the group Red Priest), which I picked up at the back of one of their concerts. Otherwise, I have Schiff (1) and Hewitt.

[Thropplenoggin]

I've just ordered my first Goldberg Variations by Gavrilov on DG (their new cheap Virtuoso series). I've always struggled with this work, despite getting on swimmingly with Beethoven's various variations. This one spoke to me more than others I roadtested on Spotify ('Hum-ty Dumpty' Gould, Perahia, Angelich). I haven't tried any HIPers to date and harpsichords set my teeth on edge (for now).

[rkyburz]

Which Schiff?

Your post led me out of curiosity to Amazon, and to this impenetrable review - perhaps you or some other MBer quicker on the uptake than me can tell me what it's all about

I'm open to more harpsichord versions - should this be the one? I already have a terrific performance which nobody seems to have heard of by David Wright (who is currently the harpsichordist with the group Red Priest), which I picked up at the back of one of their concerts. Otherwise, I have Schiff (1) and Hewitt.

Hi RT, sorry for the omission: I have the Schiff recording from 2003 — not entirely happy with this, even though as a piano version it is certainly not bad (Schiff is an excellent pianist, I'm sure, but somehow I feel that his qualities often don't really transpire through CD / studio recordings, and I haven't had the chance to hear him live).

That Amazon review is weird, to say the least — I took for granted that Rousset's performance is at / near the top of the (harpsichord) range, given the outcome of that BaL; I may just go for it to compare that myself; I grew up with Leonhardt's older recording on LP, later I added Leonhardt's second recording (Dowd / Blanchet, 1982), and Landowska (more out of curiosity / historic interest) and Hans Vollenweider (as a "local" version, also harpsichord — Hans Vollenweider at that time was the organist at the Zurich Grossmünster), besides a couple piano versions (the two prominent Gould recordings, and Weissenberg). All this is now collecting dust in our basement ...

For the recordings on CD: I never liked the Weissenberg recording, so I'm not going to add that on CD (and the Vollenweider recording isn't worth it, I think, not is it likely to be available at all), but I added Koopman, who is certainly less dogmatic than Leonhardt (whose older recording on Skowroneck / Dulcken I prefer over the one on Dowd, even though the former is definitely inferior as far as recording technique goes): Koopman adds his own ornamentation — as does Dantone.
I haven't done a thorough review, nor did I do any rating on the Goldbergs when I last listened (2009); I skimmed through a couple variations now, trying to do a quick comparison between Koopman and Dantone — it's not conclusive: all I can say, the two recordings are entirely different (e.g.: I picked variation 4, where Koopman is a bit stiff and "loud", whereas Dantone takes a lute stop ... in 29, Dantone is substantially faster than Koopman, etc. ... ). I tend to prefer Dantone, but that may also reflect my general appreciation for his way of playing, his articulation & phrasing, etc.; at this point I would not want to make any firm statement about my preferred recording, and I can't comment about Rousset.
I seem to remember that in a review of 5 or 6 recordings of the Goldbergs here on DRS2 Rousset came out on top as well, though Dantone was definitely not involved in that — blind — comparison, and I'm not sure whether Koopman was included as well.

[visualnickmos]

I have Glenn Gould - piano version. Fab!!!!!

[Bryn]

I have Glenn Gould - piano version. Fab!!!!!

Which of the several Gould recordings of the Goldbergs would that be? There's even a sort of hi-tech player piano version of his 1955 recording:

[visualnickmos]

Which of the several Gould recordings of the Goldbergs would that be? There's even a sort of hi-tech player piano version of his 1955 recording:

It is Sony Classical's Glenn Gould Edition, recorded digitally in 1981. I find it electric...

This is the only Glenn Gould I have.