BaL 29.06.19 - Mozart: Piano Quartets 1 & 2

[teamsaint]

I wish David Owen Norris was given a weekly Bal all of his own. I could listen to him for hours. Best R 3 broadcaster, out there IMVHO. One learns so much from his knowledge and wonderful style of delivery.

More Stephen Johnson would be good too.
Too white, male, middle aged ?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I wasn't being entirely serious about passing the baton on BaL listings. I only consider it when I've just completes a marathon - in this case, The Rite of Spring, but there've been others, such as the Four Seasons, The Planets, Beethoven 3 & 5, and operas that take up the first two posts.

Besides which, BaL will almost certainly be having a summer break in a couple of weeks.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Mal.... HIPPs... with tasteless expressions like "Period Taliban" or "bar-room piano" you only emphasise your own already obvious prejudices.
As for Bilson's group "overacting" what on Earth does that mean? Certainly tells us nothing about the reading, which is a lovely, subtle, wide-ranging performance, one I'm coming to know quite well (see #53).

Well, to be fair on Mal, there's huge prejudice in the other other direction, in particular, from certain reviewers, who are happy to dismiss anything played on proper instruments . Or to refer to such performances by referring to them as "vibrato sozzled". Or to say "You really shouldn't be listening to this one."
Such "moral superiority" isn't helpful.

[ardcarp]

I can only concur with those who found this a truly awful BAL. I was hoping to learn a bit about these piano quartets, but the only discussion of a faintly technical nature was the tired old stuff about fortepianos and what ‘allegretto’ means. For God’s sake!

Another problem for me is that, knowledgeable presenter though he is, we just hear too much of Andrew in a very long programme. By the time we got to his dialogue with Jeremy Summerly (who surely needs no ‘help’ ) I just had to switch off.

[Mal]

To be fair on Jayne, perhaps "Period Taliban" or "bar-room piano" was a bit over the top, but I was angry with AMcG and guest for coming out with the usual tired generalisations against modern instruments, like "piano too big to balance with the string players", and "Szell is good because the sound is so bad that it sounds HIPP, and that kind of bad sound is good, ha ha ha." Lets just say I seldom agree with critics who prefer HIPP performances and don't, usually, like the sound of the fortepiano. I don't think this is prejudice, just my own personal preference (shared with many others, including several learned critics...)

[zola]

I can only concur with those who found this a truly awful BAL. I was hoping to learn a bit about these piano quartets, but the only discussion of a faintly technical nature was the tired old stuff about fortepianos and what ‘allegretto’ means. For God’s sake!

Another problem for me is that, knowledgeable presenter though he is, we just hear too much of Andrew in a very long programme. By the time we got to his dialogue with Jeremy Summerly (who surely needs no ‘help’ ) I just had to switch off.

There's an opportunity for them to have a rethink in September after the Proms, though the BBC rarely admit a mistake. The permanent twofer format coincided with the programme losing half an hour. Surely they won't wheel out Jess Gillam again in September will they ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There's an opportunity for them to have a rethink in September after the Proms, though the BBC rarely admit a mistake.

True - but they're not averse to announcing "brand new initiatives" which turn out to be policy U-turns. Remember the fanfares announcing Live evening concerts which followed a couple of years of Roger's presenting everything at 8 o'clock, which was greeted with derision by audiences and performers alike? I'm hoping some bod at the Beeb will declare a radical new format, never tried before - of having a solitary reviewer making an individual choice of a work from the available recordings. Until then, I'm not bothering with the programme.

[jayne lee wilson]

Well, to be fair on Mal, there's huge prejudice in the other other direction, in particular, from certain reviewers, who are happy to dismiss anything played on proper instruments . Or to refer to such performances by referring to them as "vibrato sozzled". Or to say "You really shouldn't be listening to this one."
Such "moral superiority" isn't helpful.

Forgive me Alpen, but that certainly isn't true of the Gramophone and hasn't been for some years now. Very wide critical sympathies....the many reissues of older pianists have encouraged even wider reappraisal of performance styles...
Online, my perception is if anything the reverse. Look at various Amazon comments (I don't bother much now...) which still seem to treat period instruments as new and difficult, usually falling back on golden oldies.....

Anyway - just look at this thread.... not much enthusiasm for Kuijken, Bilson, Sonnerie, Badura-Skoda or HIPPs-authentic generally here is there? I'm almost a lone voice....

[jayne lee wilson]

To be fair on Jayne, perhaps "Period Taliban" or "bar-room piano" was a bit over the top, but I was angry with AMcG and guest for coming out with the usual tired generalisations against modern instruments, like "piano too big to balance with the string players", and "Szell is good because the sound is so bad that it sounds HIPP, and that kind of bad sound is good, ha ha ha." Lets just say I seldom agree with critics who prefer HIPP performances and don't, usually, like the sound of the fortepiano. I don't think this is prejudice, just my own personal preference (shared with many others, including several learned critics...)

Well modern pianos often do dominate such recordings to varying degrees(**), as a tour of such on Qobuz will reveal; there is an inherent problem with the medium, it is a technical point, easily tested, and a strong motivation to use different instruments. Again, fortepianos don't all sound the same, they are often very distinct, you can't easily generalise. You need to listen widely to get that.

I wonder which critics you had in mind? (Please don't mention that dreadful Amazon guy of the self-loving prose again, who deserves neither the term "learned" or "critic"..I had the profound misfortune to stumble upon his "comments" on Bilson...an utter travesty; supposedly a mixed-metaphorical "dismissal", all it shows is how very bad a writer & listener he is, devoted not to music but to preening self-promotion...... .)

(**) See my comments on Klien/Amadeus above, which is fine - very well balanced in fact, in the outer movements but slightly spoils things with the closer-set, pedalled resonance in the andante...

***
I meant to add about the outstanding Bilson recording - more than any other, I felt it evoked, strikingly, the expressive world of the Piano Concertos, so close in date (1785/6) and k-numbers (466/467....478/493 etc)... not so surprising as Bilson did the complete set with JEG around the same time. But it adds a further rich layer of meaning... again, I think you'd need to hear it through to get at that.
It is a wonderfully considered reading from a great Mozartian with a beautifully-matched, musically sympathetic ensemble, so do seek it out.

[MickyD]

[QUOTE Anyway - just look at this thread.... not much enthusiasm for Kuijken, Bilson, Sonnerie, Badura-Skoda or HIPPs-authentic generally here is there? I'm almost a lone voice....[/QUOTE]

Not quite - I am very enthusiastic about Bilson. But I repeat my earlier request for anyone to tell me how they find the DHM/Staier version, which never got in the list or mentioned on the BAL.

[jayne lee wilson]

Sadly can't locate the Staier on Qobuz.....but still need to hear the BaL and the Fauré-Q....

[Mal]

I wonder which critics you had in mind? (Please don't mention that dreadful Amazon guy...)

The critics I respect the most are Nicholas Kenyon & The Third Ear critic Allan Linkowski. The former, in his Faber guide to Mozart, recommends Ax, Brendel and Curzon. The latter recommends Schnabel, Curzon, Szell amongst historical choices, Brendel and Beaux Arts amongst contemporary. My sampling gave me a "must have" experience with Brendel and the Beaux Arts. Ax I must explore some more!

[ardcarp]

I am in no way opposed to fortepianos. My criticism was of the platitudes. For instance fortepianos are not all the same. ‘Mozart’s’ instrument sounded utterly different from the one played by Billings. Neither was any mention made of a ‘historic’ temperament used on one of them, nor for that matter the terribly poor tuning of the modern piano in the 1940’s recording. DON would have been onto that like a ton of bricks. And what was lacking from the programme was any sense of the form and shape of movements...just a vacuous repetition on ‘instruments exchanging motivic ideas’. Isn’t that what classical chamber music does?

[richardfinegold]

I hope not, but it does appear to be the case.

Does anyone want to take over the listings?

Good luck with that,Alpie

[richardfinegold]

To be fair on Jayne, perhaps "Period Taliban" or "bar-room piano" was a bit over the top, but I was angry with AMcG and guest for coming out with the usual tired generalisations against modern instruments, like "piano too big to balance with the string players", and "Szell is good because the sound is so bad that it sounds HIPP, and that kind of bad sound is good, ha ha ha." Lets just say I seldom agree with critics who prefer HIPP performances and don't, usually, like the sound of the fortepiano. I don't think this is prejudice, just my own personal preference (shared with many others, including several learned critics...)

I loved Period Taliban and the piano reference. Keep it coming