BaL 29.06.19 - Mozart: Piano Quartets 1 & 2

[Mal]

We don't have "Period Eyes", but that doesn't mean that the Sistine Chapel would be better if it were gone over with acrylics.

Do you really think the best modern instrument makers & players are "doing things over with acrylics"? That seems rather insulting to every instrument maker and player since the early 19th century - apart from those late 20th century HIPPsters trying to paint "just like" Michelangelo. Actually, besides being impossible, it sounds like forgery. Lock em up! :)

We don't speak with "Period Voices", but that doesn't mean that Chaucer is improved by modern English translations.

Even Chaucer scholars seem happy to read Chaucer in modern hardback/paperback. To be properly "period", surely Chaucer should be read on parchment, inscribed by a monk using a quill, and maybe a bit rat chewn and rain damaged.

[Bryn]

Do you really think the best modern instrument makers & players are "doing things over with acrylics"? That seems rather insulting to every instrument maker and player since the early 19th century - apart from those late 20th century HIPPsters trying to paint "just like" Michelangelo. Actually, besides being impossible, it sounds like forgery. Lock em up! :)



Even Chaucer scholars seem happy to read Chaucer in modern hardback/paperback. To be properly "period", surely Chaucer should be read on parchment, inscribed by a monk using a quill, and maybe a bit rat chewn and rain damaged.

[jayne lee wilson]

1. Scruton. The Aesthetics of Music was published around 20 years ago. Most pejorative comments on HIPPs from the time are completely outdated now, with the extraordinary proliferation of so many new orchestras and chamber groups, so very skilled and musical in their execution. But his prejudices are too obvious for his judgment to be taken seriously.
2. “We don’t have period ears” …wasn’t that Robert Simpson, not Keller? And how many decades ago? The comment is not as clever as it seems, a mere quip or soundbite really, and Simpson would probably have been readier than most to revise his opinion if he’d lived to hear the flourishing of 21st C recordings by Antonini, Savall, Cristofori, AAMB, so many new groups, and how many of Bruggen’s or Harnoncourt’s had he actually heard? HIPPs is no longer some “genre” or limited school; it is far too varied in its expressive means and sounds to be judged accurately by those who have never lost their early antipathy toward it. Compare Fey’s Haydn with Antonini’s….or the sound of a Fritz, a Walter, an Erard, a Schleicher etc etc...
3. Not to mention the revitalising results such conductors have achieved for classical rep with modern SOs.
4. How many posters here have actually listened to any of the shortlisted recordings, complete, more than once, at CD quality?

If, working off lossy-codec excerpts and my description, you wonder if the Fauré-Q reading is no more, or perhaps less, than the sum of its parts….
how could you possibly know, if you never heard the whole of it, only ever a few brief “parts”?

No more basic requirement of musical critique, than you should pay very close attention to whatsoever you pass judgment upon, and preferably be sympathetic to its aims and means, have close comparative experience of similar recordings, and at least be openminded.
Laura Tunbridge self-evidently passed all those tests. More than most in this discussion can claim.

What a strange approach to musical critique, to research other reviews without listening closely to the recording under discussion…
The allmusic review of the Faure-Q is, as anyone who had listened to the recording carefully would know, wildly inaccurate - a disgrace frankly (which allmusic reviews often are), even just on the basis of sound alone. It isn’t remotely “lush” or “weighty”. The musical expression and sound-pressure or tonal emphasis varies widely throughout.
I can say this with confidence as I use studio-monitoring equipment, or closely-related to such (ATC/Harbeth), at a good volume level in a large room.
I don't know the current details of Colin Anderson's system (Classical Source), but he is a frequent contributor to the scrutinising rigours of Hi Fi Critic, so....
Misha Donat’s BBCMM review is far more positive than Mal’s selective quote from it suggests. As with the Scruton quote, too much confirmation-bias going on here.

It is a gorgeous record. Abandon preconceptions. Go listen….

[Goon525]

Jayne is right to say that the BBC MM review is a great deal more positive than not. But Nalen Anthoni in Gramophone is unconvinced:-

Mozart Piano Quartets, K478 & K493
Elegant, neat, everything in place, but where’s the feeling?


ShowView record and artist details
Author:
Nalen Anthoni

Mozart Piano Quartets, K478 & K493



Modern instrument performances but there is a period-instrument feel to them. It doesn’t fit. In trying to imitate ‘old’ through ‘new’, in trying to transfer one kind of sonority to another, the Fauré Quartet slight both camps. But you couldn’t slight their playing at all. It is always impeccably coiffured, not a note out of place, ensemble precise. The opening movement of K478 is stark in texture, right for G minor. But Mozart’s ‘tragic key’ doesn’t touch these artists deeply because efficiency intrudes. They seem to stand on the fringes looking down on the music, rather than giving in to it and committing themselves to a warm response.

Perceived historical accuracy, also suggested by the added embellishments, may be the goal, and may explain the impersonality behind these performances that particularly affects both slow movements. They are beautifully expounded but are presentations rather than interpretations, not opinions but statements inviting listeners to make up their own minds. Some might find that acceptable. Others will find the lack of total identification with these works tantamount to a soulless offering. The Fauré Quartet are supremely proficient but, sadly, refuse to back away from safe ground.

Paul Lewis and the Leopold Trio are far more involved, and are tonally less etiolated, too. Yet there is room for a recording by a group that has the courage to stand up and be counted – as Clifford Curzon and members of the Amadeus Quartet did more than 50 years ago.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

We have modern beefed up, even timbered, instruments, but that's not what Mozart knew or composed for.

Nah - not beefed up - just improved, enabling long notes the composers wrote to be heard on a piano, rather than having to imagine them whilst wishing they hadn't faded so quickly.

Mozart and others composed much the same style of music for all instruments and voices, which suggests they weren't writing for specific instruments at all.

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes, I saw the Nalen Anthoni review, but (of course ) I felt he overstates the case about safety or impersonality; both the ensemble and the lovely recorded sound have commendable warmth, where needed. It has a the kind of subtleties of sound and expression that will often be underestimated if the listener doesn't live with it for a while. That older tradition, the very considered type of studio recording which has different aims from live-performance excitement or max-intensity. The concept of "a good one to live with"...before we were all overwhelmed by superabundance.

I can imagine the fondly-recalled Sounds in Retrospect panel suggesting replay at highish volume levels, to get the best out of it.

Worth emphasising too that the G-minor stern-ness of k478 only lasts for one movement. This isn't k516 or Symphony No.40. So I feel the performance, the performers' response, has to be proportioned accordingly...

[Braunschlag]

Forgive me here but I often wonder -are we buying reviews or CDs?
Personally speaking I couldn’t give a fig about anything HIPP but I’m certainly not going to waste time criticising or defending it, can’t stand the sound of it and never have done, end of that avenue.
Nevertheless, I certainly wouldn’t be remotely interested in anything that Scruton says (different matter with Keller, at least he was entertaining with it).

[Bryn]

I've been a bit overwhelmed with other musical commitments of late to spin the Burnett/Salomons recording that arrived early last week. I will listen this evening but just noticed the booklet notes were written by one of our members. Anyone like to guess which one? Stanley Sadie was not that impressed by the performances.

[Master Jacques]

‘We have period instruments, but we do not have period ears.’ - Hans Keller.

Smart, but no cigar. (a) Physically, we do; (b) it's our job as listeners, if we want to get more out of our listening, to train ourselves to be able to detach ourselves from "modern" instruments and playing practise, when it comes to listening to any music older than our own time.

Since Keller died, he'd perhaps be surprised to find that the playing style he would have considered "modern" in (say) Elgar or Brahms, is now itself considered "period" in the sense of "old-fashioned" - and not historically justified.

Another point: "modern" playing style has been irrevocably altered by HIP, even for those playing on and conducting "modern" instruments (e.g. Zinman's Beethoven).

[cloughie]

It’s our job as listeners, if we want to get more out of our listening, to train ourselves to be able to detach ourselves from "modern" instruments and playing practise, when it comes to listening to any music older than our own time.

Hang on a minute I think I can decide for myself what I want from my listening, and I’m not ready to trade the excellence of modern instruments and playing practice for something that is often inferior and may I suggest at times a marketing trend - new lamps discarded in favour of old lamps!

[Bryn]

I've been a bit overwhelmed with other musical commitments of late to spin the Burnett/Salomons recording that arrived early last week. I will listen this evening but just noticed the booklet notes were written by one of our members. Anyone like to guess which one? Stanley Sadie was not that impressed by the performances.

Oh dear. The disc turned out to have been sold with a large 30mm x 1mm scuff curving from the centre towards the rim. This has rendered it unreadable, let alone playable. Return request initiated.

[jayne lee wilson]

‘We have period instruments, but we do not have period ears.’ - Hans Keller.

Chapter and verse, Mal?
As I said in #123, I thought this was Robert Simpson, but no amount of online searching or riffling through Keller's books here throws it up...

I'd like to know for sure....anyone...?
(Or was it Simpson quoting Keller? They were close friends at the BBC...)

It doesn't sound like Keller though.... too easy to debunk, as having "modern ears" (a contentious concept in itself) doesn't stop us researching period instruments, classical and early performance practices, responding to the results with humility and versatility and being changed by them. Humankind should never stop learning, and change is the only evidence for life.

The effect of HIPPs and researches, the striking sonorities of the lovely older instruments, and the interpretative approach to classical recording and performance is deep and wide, extending to size and composition of the orchestras themselves.

As a musiclover of course you can ignore it, but your knowledge of musical history will be seriously compromised. As an artistic and educational musical enterprise, the creative revitalisation across classical music is irrefutable, and self-evidently goes beyond personal taste. We wouldn't be having this stimulating exchange of views if it were merely a matter of like/dislike...

[MickyD]

Fierce criticism of HIP performances was probably fair enough in the early days when performers hadn't mastered old instruments and certain recordings could set your teeth on edge, but now standards have become so high that newer recordings surely cannot be dismissed so readily.

As someone said earlier on, it's a question of personal taste between ancient and modern. My fascination for HIP is still with me after all these years, and my enjoyment of it is all the more so now that such an excellent new level has been reached.

[Braunschlag]

‘It doesn't sound like Keller though....’

Although I’m not sure where this quip from Keller (?) originated it has a Keller ring to it. His book ‘Criticism’ (a collection of bits and bobs assembled after his death) contains some pretty scathing comments about the new authentic movements of the 60s. He pulls no punches Jayne, you’d find much to take issue with but it is of its era I suppose. It’s a quite interesting read apart from that, I love his chapter on Phoney Professions, it’s a hoot (covering such things as viola players, conductors and others). He does make you think.

[jayne lee wilson]

‘It doesn't sound like Keller though....’

Although I’m not sure where this quip from Keller (?) originated it has a Keller ring to it. His book ‘Criticism’ (a collection of bits and bobs assembled after his death) contains some pretty scathing comments about the new authentic movements of the 60s. He pulls no punches Jayne, you’d find much to take issue with but it is of its era I suppose. It’s a quite interesting read apart from that, I love his chapter on Phoney Professions, it’s a hoot (covering such things as viola players, conductors and others). He does make you think.

Absolutely! That particular book (Criticism) has had a big influence on how I think and try to write about such things - the phoney professions chapter is acute, and devastating, especially about editors and psychiatrists....who invent or misconceive your problems and then ask you (writer or patient) to solve them....

Utter honesty too, about avoiding writing on those composers he never understood, but respected others' admiration for.... (Delius, Debussy, Sibelius IIRC)....

Wonderful writing, recommended to everyone (and don't miss "Music, Closed Societies and Football" with an extended essay about Music 1975, and a no punches pulled account of escaping (just....!) from Vienna during the anschluss..).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Music-Closed-Societies-Football-0/dp/0907689213/ref=sr_1_12?keywords=hans+keller&qid=1561926360&s=gateway&sr=8-12

***

Vinteuil kindly informed me by PM of a source for the Period-ears quote, a footnote on p 214 of Andrew Bowie's 'Music, Philosophy, and Modernity', which attributes it to Keller; I tracked this down, but there is no further bibliographical proof offered as to the source ....