BaL 1.06.19 - Mendelssohn: Symphony no. 4 "Italian"

[richardfinegold]

Ah...not convincingly the wiser since JEG formed the Monteverdi Choir as a student ensemble when he himself was still a student -- hence my not quite understanding the "Kantor-ish" appellation, which seems to betoken a maturity born of many years' experience or at the very least a definable pedagogical quality. Sorry for being so obtuse. In the event of this not being relevant to discussion of JEG's Mendelssohn, I'd agree with those who found his LSO "Italian" devoid of charm/humanity/musicality -- just listen to the ploddingly bald & frankly boring extract of the "andante con moto" in last Sat's BAL to hear what I mean.

[jayne lee wilson]

Surprised to see few comments on CBSO/Gardner here, or how it compares to.....
.... LSO/JEG say, especially in the finale..... see #131 et seq...

I think much depends on...context... and familiarity.
I hear the LSO/JEG 4th as part of the album with an excellent No.1 (and the stunning 5th from the same great cycle, a work very dear to me - the LSO's playing beggars description on that one....), so part of a swift, light, classical view of the music, with tonal purity, rhythmic and contrapuntal definition, and subtlety of dynamic and timbre very much to the fore. But the winds often add colour and sweetness to the picture too.

I do feel that such subtleties can be bleached out even at 320 kbps acc (the best lossy codec in current use), especially if you don't hear the whole performance repeatedly. When you hear a given performance several times, you can begin to accept its musical perspective, live in its world, before going on to compare with others....sometimes you can't make the connection, but you can try to respect the individual or specific presentation.

That 24-bit 4th is playing again now.... I don't think I'll ever tire of it.... for all the aforesaid reasons... the music speaks very purely and clearly, nothing imposed upon it...
Then that finale!...Always gets me going!

[richardfinegold]

Surprised to see few comments on CBSO/Gardner here, or how it compares to.....
.... LSO/JEG say, especially in the finale..... see #131 et seq...

I think much depends on...context... and familiarity.
I hear the LSO/JEG 4th as part of the album with an excellent No.1 (and the stunning 5th from the same great cycle, a work very dear to me - the LSO's playing beggars description on that one....), so part of a swift, light, classical view of the music, with tonal purity, rhythmic and contrapuntal definition, and subtlety of dynamic and timbre very much to the fore. But the winds often add colour and sweetness to the picture too.

I do feel that such subtleties can be bleached out even at 320 kbps acc (the best lossy codec in current use), especially if you don't hear the whole performance repeatedly. When you hear a given performance several times, you can begin to accept its musical perspective, live in its world, before going on to compare with others....sometimes you can't make the connection, but you can try to respect the individual or specific presentation.

That 24-bit 4th is playing again now.... I don't think I'll ever tire of it.... for all the aforesaid reasons... the music speaks very purely and clearly, nothing imposed upon it...
Then that finale!...Always gets me going!

The JEG/LSO performance is apparently somewhat polarizing. People are either passionate about it, as you are, or once they have absorbed the feats of prestidigitation of IV, offput by what others (myself included) see as generalized blandness, particularly in the inner movements. I LOL at Mal’s summary of the reviewers comments (“Are we in Italy?”).
Fwiw, I have listened to it in both SACD and Blu Ray and on the 3 different systems in my home, 2 channel and Multichannel, and it doesn’t seem to matter.The limitations of the Barbican trump all playback considerations

[jayne lee wilson]

The JEG/LSO performance is apparently somewhat polarizing. People are either passionate about it, as you are, or once they have absorbed the feats of prestidigitation of IV, offput by what others (myself included) see as generalized blandness, particularly in the inner movements. I LOL at Mal’s summary of the reviewers comments (“Are we in Italy?”).
Fwiw, I have listened to it in both SACD and Blu Ray and on the 3 different systems in my home, 2 channel and Multichannel, and it doesn’t seem to matter.The limitations of the Barbican trump all playback considerations

Really...?
In that case, maybe there really is something special about my 24/192 WAV download then...!
(The 24/96 5th is almost as sonically splendid). I felt this from the first notes of No.1.... and swiftly made it my "Record of the Year"..... and I do have the backup of glowing Gramophone Reviews (off CD I think...), their own Record of the Year Choices etc....
I was listening to the JEG 5th, and the Lobgesang at dawn..... again, clearly one of the best on record.... wow, that Monteverdi Choir!)

As I said in more detail above, I do listen to Mendelssohn as "abstract music", (and among the greatest - OP. 44/2 plays as I write...) so the "Italian" or "German" feel to things (or the lack of such) doesn't obtrude much upon my musical perceptions or responses.
(This even applies to Symphony NO.3 in the act of listening, despite the explicit "Scottishness" of some of its materials...)

Reviewers asking things like "Are we in Italy?" seem to me to be admiring their own supposedly "clever or witty" responses. I grew tired of such commentary a long time ago.

[edashtav]

Really...?
In that case, maybe there really is something special about my 24/192 WAV download then...!
(The 24/96 5th is almost as sonically splendid). I felt this from the first notes of No.1.... and swiftly made it my "Record of the Year"..... and I do have the backup of glowing Gramophone Reviews, their own Record of the Year Choices etc....

As I said in more detail above, I do listen to Mendelssohn as "abstract music", so the "Italian" or "German" feel to things (or the lack of such) doesn't obtrude much upon my musical perceptions or responses.
(This even applies to Symphony NO.3 in the act of listening, despite the explicit "Scottishness" of some of its materials...)

That's an interesting angle, Jayne.
Some commentators have suggested that Mendelssohn was father to the
TOURIST SYMPHONY (Scottish and Italian).
If that is so, other honourable members might include:
Schumann Rhenish
Dvorak From the New World
R.Strauss Aus Italien
JB McEwen Solway
Bantock Hebridean
A.Bush Nottingham
Tchaikovsky Little Russian and Polish

[jayne lee wilson]

Do they play them in airports or hotels, Ed.? (I'd prefer Brian Eno myself...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNwYtllyt3Q

I just meant to add that - I try to stick to the sound, the performance style, and the shaping of such, as far as I can. One reason for that is that it has the chance to be a "universal" of musical perception, whereas Nationalistic or tone-painting colours or atmospheres are bound to be very subjective and perceptually divisive...

[edashtav]

Do they play them in airports or hotels, Ed.? (I'd prefer Eno myself...)

...

And... CLASSIC FM.

[jayne lee wilson]

And... CLASSIC FM.

I only wish it would...! I can't recall hearing that on Smooth Classics, late evening, when I'm preparing my one-and-only cooked meal....
(Makes a change when Newsnight gets too bloody grim...)

[edashtav]

I only wish it would...! I can't recall hearing that on Smooth Classics, late evening, when I'm preparing my one-and-only cooked meal....
(Makes a change when Newsnight gets too bloody grim...)

By golly, is it that bad!
Reminds me of the first decade that the Italian was played in GB: performances of its Andante movement outnumbered those of the whole symphony 10:1.
Julien was more creative, programming a mini mix symphony
E.g. Two in A : Mendelssohn's Andante followed by EITHER the slow movement or scherzo of Beethoven's #7.

[vinteuil]

Reminds me of the first decade that the Italian was played in GB: performances of its Andante movement outnumbered those of the whole symphony 10:1.
Julien was more creative, programming a mini mix symphony
E.g. Two in A : Mendelssohn's Andante followed by EITHER the slow movement or scherzo of Beethoven's #7.

... do you mean Jullien? Not the famous Louis George Maurice Adolphe Roche Albert Abel Antonio Alexandre Noë Jean Lucien Daniel Eugène Joseph-le-Brun Joseph-Barême Thomas Thomas Thomas-Thomas Pierre Arbon Pierre-Maurel Barthélemi Artus Alphonse Bertrand Dieudonné Emanuel Josué Vincent Luc Michel Jules-de-la-Plane Jules-Bazin Julio César Jullien??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis-Antoine_Jullien

.

[jayne lee wilson]

By golly, is it that bad!
Reminds me of the first decade that the Italian was played in GB: performances of its Andante movement outnumbered those of the whole symphony 10:1.
Julien was more creative, programming a mini mix symphony
E.g. Two in A : Mendelssohn's Andante followed by EITHER the slow movement or scherzo of Beethoven's #7.

Goodness Ed, really?
But this could be a whole new revitalisation program for the Proms....! You're giving me ideas.....

European Tour! ... A Personal Selection by Maestra Gražinytė-Tyla from her Favourite Symphonies.....

(If it works for Rameau, then....)

[edashtav]

Goodness Ed, really?
But this could be a whole new revitalisation program for the Proms....! You're giving me ideas.....

European Tour! ... A Personal Selection by Maestra Gražinytė-Tyla from her Favourite Symphonies.....

(If it works for Rameau, then....)

I don't seem to have kept the example that I had in mind but this response in the Sheffield Independent in February, 1853 will show you Monsieur Jullien's mastery of programming and a sophisticated critic's response, Jayne.

M. Jullien, in announcing this to be his farewell concert, takes occasion to thank the public for the patronage that has been extended to him in this town — "a patronage so unremitting as to enable him now to enter on his fourteenth annual tour ;" and " hopes he may, without presumption, indulge in the gratifying reflection that he has been responsible in some measure for the means of popularising good music in this country, by affording to all classes opportunities of hearing the works of the greatest masters."
We cordially agree with M. Jullien, and think he has reason to take credit for having done something toward cultivating a taste for good music. But we have only to look at the programme to see how much still remains to be done. The works of the great masters, (consisting of Beethoven's over ture to " Egmont," and fragments of two symphonies, the " Andante," from Mendelssohn, in A major, and the " Allegretto ," from Beethoven's in F,) bearing somewhat about the same proportion to the other pieces as Falstaff's "half-penny- worth of bread" did to the " two gallons of sack." Of the various forms of musical composition, that which requires the highest order of genius, is the "Symphony;" it must have a general design, consisting of various parts, or movements, having a definite relationship to each other. It follows that we can no more form a correct idea of the composer's intention from hearing an isolated portion, than we can of the "Venus de Medici" from the examination of a single limb. It is not M. Jullien, but the public who must bear the blame of thus mutilating the works of the great masters ; for, understanding thoroughly the requirements of his hearers, he caters for them accordingly ; and we cannot avoid coming to the conclusion that his thirteen years' experience of the musical taste of Sheffield has convinced him that it is impolitic to give more than an infinitessimal dose of the best music. For ourselves, we must express our thanks for the great good he has done by enabling the public to hear though but rarely instrumental music well executed; for we are convinced that so long as the people are content to sit a whole evening listening to vocal music, (a large portion consisting of weak ballads,) and rarely hearing the beautiful combinations produced by a variety of instruments, or the full tones of the glorious organ, so long will there be be but little real enjoyment, and but slow progress towards a sound and healthy musical taste among the masses in this country.

[edashtav]

... do you mean Jullien? Not the famous Louis George Maurice Adolphe Roche Albert Abel Antonio Alexandre Noë Jean Lucien Daniel Eugène Joseph-le-Brun Joseph-Barême Thomas Thomas Thomas-Thomas Pierre Arbon Pierre-Maurel Barthélemi Artus Alphonse Bertrand Dieudonné Emanuel Josué Vincent Luc Michel Jules-de-la-Plane Jules-Bazin Julio César Jullien??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis-Antoine_Jullien

.

Oui, Monsieur.

[jayne lee wilson]

I don't seem to have kept the example that I had in mind but this response in the Sheffield Independent in February, 1853 will show you Monsieur Jullien's mastery of programming and a sophisticated critic's response, Jayne.

M. Jullien, in announcing this to be his farewell concert, takes occasion to thank the public for the patronage that has been extended to him in this town — "a patronage so unremitting as to enable him now to enter on his fourteenth annual tour ;" and " hopes he may, without presumption, indulge in the gratifying reflection that he has been responsible in some measure for the means of popularising good music in this country, by affording to all classes opportunities of hearing the works of the greatest masters."
We cordially agree with M. Jullien, and think he has reason to take credit for having done something toward cultivating a taste for good music. But we have only to look at the programme to see how much still remains to be done. The works of the great masters, (consisting of Beethoven's over ture to " Egmont," and fragments of two symphonies, the " Andante," from Mendelssohn, in A major, and the " Allegretto ," from Beethoven's in F,) bearing somewhat about the same proportion to the other pieces as Falstaff's "half-penny- worth of bread" did to the " two gallons of sack." Of the various forms of musical composition, that which requires the highest order of genius, is the "Symphony;" it must have a general design, consisting of various parts, or movements, having a definite relationship to each other. It follows that we can no more form a correct idea of the composer's intention from hearing an isolated portion, than we can of the "Venus de Medici" from the examination of a single limb. It is not M. Jullien, but the public who must bear the blame of thus mutilating the works of the great masters ; for, understanding thoroughly the requirements of his hearers, he caters for them accordingly ; and we cannot avoid coming to the conclusion that his thirteen years' experience of the musical taste of Sheffield has convinced him that it is impolitic to give more than an infinitessimal dose of the best music. For ourselves, we must express our thanks for the great good he has done by enabling the public to hear though but rarely instrumental music well executed; for we are convinced that so long as the people are content to sit a whole evening listening to vocal music, (a large portion consisting of weak ballads,) and rarely hearing the beautiful combinations produced by a variety of instruments, or the full tones of the glorious organ, so long will there be be but little real enjoyment, and but slow progress towards a sound and healthy musical taste among the masses in this country.

What a wonderful post Ed - thank you so much for the verbal felicity, amusement and education it offers....
So now we know....Classic FM has the deepest most traditional of roots in Humanity itself......dating back to the 19thC.... who knew?

The LSO/JEG Lobgesang has just swept to its conclusion here again, helping me through this grey, grey overcast rainy day....
Die Nacht ist Vergangen! For a few hours at least....(better at Dawn...)..
It is rare for a chorus to match the orchestra for such thrilling agility, definition, dynamism ... but with the Monteverdi Choir and JEG's attention to his soloists, you can rely on vocal excellence from such sources, solo and choral.
Marvellous piece.

I can only urge the Cycle on devoted listeners here once again, however you can access it, in the highest resolution you can find...

[Goon525]

RVW London?