BaL 1.06.19 - Mendelssohn: Symphony no. 4 "Italian"

[cloughie]

... and, lo and behold! - it was that very Wallberg recording that was my first - and for many years, the only - version of the work I ever owned, but in its MfP (10p cheaper than CfP LPs) incarnation, in which the orchestra was given its "proper" title:




I haven't heard it in ... well, must be around 30 years, but I have very fond memories of the performance, which was often played in my teens. (And the same goes for the Schubert coupling.)

I’d forgotten about that reincarnation of the recordings - the original couplings on SXLP and CFP respectively were, I believe, MND Ov & Inc Mus and Rosamunde excerpts.

[ardcarp]

I feel diffident about adding anything to so expertly and eloquently covered a thread. Having just heard the programme via the cans, the Bergen Phil, The Academy of SMF and the CBSO all exhibited playing and recording of exceptional achievement, IMHO, and I was happy that Gardner/CBSO 'won'. But like others above, I was surprised at the shockingly few examples considered. (I won't even mention twofers...oh damn, I just did.)

To me The Italian is far and away 'the best' of Mendelssohn's symphonies, its level of inspiration and brilliance of orchestration being a mile away from (IMVHO) the somewhat stodgy Scottish. That opinion is, I have found, shared by even hard-bitten orchestral players; yes, even the hard-pressed woodwind.

Such a shame we didn't get to hear just a few favourites from yesteryear.

What was that business about describing the slow movement religious procession as 'Catholic/Lutheran' ? Was that just a mistake or sheer ignorance?

[edashtav]

Ardcarp in a thoughtful overview, added this:

"What was that business about describing the slow movement religious procession as 'Catholic/Lutheran' ? Was that just a mistake or sheer ignorance?"

No wonder Mendelssohn composed a Reformation Symphony!

[edashtav]

It's been a delight to see the 'covers' exhibited on this thread: have others noticed the frequency of Classical
Italian buildings and statues?
I feel that The Italian dwells much more on garrulous, fun-loving folk, living life to the full.

Do you agree?

[Master Jacques]

Have you heard Krivine or Heras-Casado? Way more going on there than "lucid and lithe"....neither are especially fast, in fact the Pablo-inspired Freiburgers are rather relaxed and refined until the finale, with lovely softly translucent timbres (as I said above, this might be heard as all-too-beautiful...). Let's not forget that tempi or timings aren't everything; it is more about responsiveness and characterisation in phrase colour and - dynamics (this is one reason why I prefer the earlier Abbado to the later- the feeling that every bar matters).[/I]

I'm a great admirer of Heras-Casado, and promote his work whenever I can. But I agree here with your qualification that his Mendelssohn is possibly "all-too-beautiful". It's a perfect example of what I mean: the lovely timbres of the Freiburgers become an end in themselves, and as the "trees" are so sensually lovely we reach the end without really having had a sense of Mendelssohn's "wood".

The problem with "micro dynamics" (nice phrase!) is that it calls attention to the fact that the music somehow needs "bringing to life". Sometimes this comes over as the musical equivalent of helping lame dogs over styles. There are some composers - notably the hugely under-prized Boccherini - where micro-dynamics are requested by the composer and needed. But what we hear in too many Mendelssohn performances is often more an expression of performers' personalities than Mendelssohn's.

You are on the nail about tempi and timings never telling the whole story. Some of the slowest performances can feel too fast, and vice versa. But I feel that Mendelssohn - like Spohr and Schumann - is too often press-ganged into a Beethovenian tradition of responsive dynamism where he simply doesn't belong.

[edashtav]

I agree with Master Jacques and wish to put in a good word, as the programme did, for Herbert Blomstedt's calm, insightful and very musical recording.

And... full marks to this thread which has delved so much deeper, and wider than the broadcast Bal.

[Goon525]

I agree with Master Jacques and wish to put in a good word, as the programme did, for Herbert Blomstedt's calm, insightful and very musical recording.

And... full marks to this thread which has delved so much deeper, and wider than the broadcast Bal.

Indeed it has. Incidentally, Blomstedt was pronounced 'Bloomstedt' on the programme. Is that right?

[Bryn]

Indeed it has. Incidentally, Blomstedt was pronounced 'Bloomstedt' on the programme. Is that right?

https://forvo.com/word/herbert_blomstedt/

[edashtav]

https://forvo.com/word/herbert_blomstedt/

Well, that was a surprise, Bryn, and, we may have been making a 'right Herbert' of his forename, too.

[richardfinegold]

I concur that the Italian is FM symphonic masterpiece, although in the right hands The Scottish can be very impressive as well. If we subtracted the Italian from FM catalog, he might be demoted to the ranks of Second Rate Composer, but with this Symphony,the MSND music, the VC and the Octet and a few other Chamber Works he Chas enough in his portfolio to cling precipitously to the top ring.

[jayne lee wilson]

The CBSO/Gardner (Chandos, CD (c/w a glorious 5th, yet another FM piece I adore) the BaL top choice) airy and spacious in the Birmingham Town Hall, has plenty going for it right away: rhythmically very alert, tonally refined, never too heavy in climaxes - always appealingly flighted and retaining textural transparency in the biggest moments, but still with a good, punchy development. A well-controlled ensemble, but with clear, colourful, never anonymous, recessed or corporate winds. Joy, but not (yet) unconfined (this is the 1st movement, after all).

The gorgeous recording - so much space and time to breathe - reveals every subtle nuance of colour and dynamic in a perfectly paced andante - of which there are many, but these never impose upon a watchful, musically-faithful interpretation. (I didn’t worry much about how “German” or “Italian” it felt…)
The winds are allowed their individual moments in the gentle minuet, the strings remain pure and clear…
Beautifully-judged trio too, the horns/winds/strings engaged in a warm and friendly dialogue. Climaxing with prominent timps and trumpets, but never OTT.
Gardner offers a subtle expressive emphasis in the minuet repeat; that telling way of going further than the merely routine and literal one-more-time.

So you’d expect the finale to be perfectly judged-and-just-right too, wouldn’t you?
Well wait a minute - wow!
This is very fast (5’21) and lets the accumulated tension of the first three movements out in rush, a blast of precision and energy. Dynamics still subtle though (Microdynamics at this pace? Hearing is believing!), brass thrillingly prominent in the reverberant acoustic…
But (the only “but” here)…. like Fey for example, there is an inescapable slight flattening of schwung at this pace. So I had to compare LSO/JEG and sure enough (at an almost identical 5’18) - they are superior in those respects, the extra kick and swing (produced by subtle stresses and emphases within the lightning-fast phrases) very telling and very involving (that foot-tapping factor but at high speed).
This LSO Live recording should rank high on any list.
(Which VPO/JEG might still do, too, but for very different reasons…)

But finally the CBSO/Gardner, with gorgeous classic-Chandos highly-resolved mid-hall sound, have given us a great Italian, a perfect choice, I would think, if you still stand by one or two much older stereo or mono recordings and are in need of some refreshment. If you like a big sound in the climaxes, they are impressive here, but much clearer, sweeter and more layered than the thickening and opacity which can affect even such careful artists as Abbado say, or Sinopoli. (Sound quality and Interpretation are never wholly separable.)

On the very first page of this thread I said that the Gardner could be a “safer” option; well, scratch that - there’s much more to it!
One for the ages….a classic.

[Maclintick]

... full marks to this thread which has delved so much deeper, and wider than the broadcast Bal.

Seconded, with thanks for boarders' personal recommendations. The "shout-outs" (dread term) for Fey, Wallberg & Stokie have certainly piqued my interest, & will stimulate further exploration, though I won't be consigning my benchmark 1968/LSO/Abbado to the charity bins as yet. Of the versions considered in this serviceable BAL, the one which most appealed was COE/Nézet-Séguin, for miraculously fleet & nimble playing, sparing use of vibrato, and almost chamber-musical scale and clarity. The excerpts had a singing, Rossinian operatic quality which I found beguiling.

[jayne lee wilson]

***
Trying to sum up after close attention to at least 10 recordings across the week….

Listening again to (well, revelling in) CBSO/Gardner, I wondered if I’d been a shade unfair about their terrific finale.
So back to YNS and - yep, there it still was: that extra inner animation of dynamics and rhythm, subtler pacing-through (yet only a few seconds slower overall) giving the music even greater life and joy all the way, and as it culminates.

I’d be surprised that this would come across to anyone (at least giving time to really know it) as “fussy” or overdone - it is subtle. With the warmer sound of the COE recording, it just feels more expressive and involving. A little bit more of everything, all of it creatively musical. But this isn't to deny the merits of Gardner's stricter, more hard-hitting approach. With that Chandos sound, it works brilliantly for him.

So two wonderful, very recent recordings, from two young(-ish) conductors in superb recorded sound…..
The state-of-the-Mendelssohnian-Art has definitely been advanced!

I would make these two equal favourites this time round, with LSO/JEG just a shade beneath, largely down to the lovely acoustic settings for YNS and Edward Gardner.
For HIPPs-Authentic, Krivine is the much easier first choice - a memorable album with that outstanding 5th c/w..
(Soft spots for: VPO/JEG, LSO/Abbado 1968…
off-to-one-side: MW/Holliger in the revision, also with many intriguing interpretative ideas...)

[silvestrione]

I concur that the Italian is FM symphonic masterpiece, although in the right hands The Scottish can be very impressive as well. If we subtracted the Italian from FM catalog, he might be demoted to the ranks of Second Rate Composer, but with this Symphony,the MSND music, the VC and the Octet and a few other Chamber Works he Chas enough in his portfolio to cling precipitously to the top ring.

Don't forget the Hebrides Overture! My favourite Mendelssohn I think.

[Edgy 2]

I agree with Master Jacques and wish to put in a good word, as the programme did, for Herbert Blomstedt's calm, insightful and very musical recording.

And... full marks to this thread which has delved so much deeper, and wider than the broadcast Bal.

As these threads always do,absolutely no need to listen to the programme and get all worked up,