BaL 1.06.19 - Mendelssohn: Symphony no. 4 "Italian"

[richardfinegold]

CD guide recommendations: Rob Cowan recommends Solti/Chicago, but Stephen Chakwin ("Third Ear") doesn't, suggesting he is "very driven". Having sampled on Spotify I agree with Chakwin... and he seems, to me, to be a good guide to Mendelssohn. Cowan also recommends the complete set by Masur but, again, I agree with Chakwin, it's "pleasant but somewhat generalised". My favourite Spotify listen, one of Chakwin's choices, was Harnoncourt's "lovely and fresh" performance on Teldec 72308; he provides great urgency in III, which Sinopoli (my current library version) does not. Chakwin also recommends Solti/Israel, Mackerras OAE, and Stokowski. He also recommends the complete sets by Seifried/Irish National Orchestra (Naxos), Abbado/LSO/ DG, and Dohnanyi/VPO... He especially recommend's Abbado's set as having a good 4.

Stokowski (Cala CACD 0531 Nat. PO) is Penguin's sole "key" choice "one of the last recordings Stokowski [1978] made with a first class orchestra of London's top musicians... fizzingly brilliant..."

Rough Guide plumps for Abbado/DG in 4 "adroitness.. urgency...power", but suggests the coupled 3 is only "marginally convincing".

Abbado/DG ""structural direction and emotional abandon" is also Gramophone's top choice, but there are several near competitors in a "big box" review.

Gramophone and Third Ear have comprehensive reviews of the symphony worth digging into if you have particular needs (e.g, HIPP recommendations...)

I listened to the JEG/LSO again last night. It is an amazing feat of virtuosity, and I think everyone should hear it. What bothers me about it is a complete lack of Italianate sensibility. Now I get that FM was German, and the work is is a German’s Italian impressions, but JEG comes of as a British HIPPster trying to dazzle and leaves the Mediterranean sunshine behind. The lack of atmosphere is particularly notable in II, which zips by as if the worshippers are hurrying to get to the pub before it closes. With the dry as dust recorded acoustic thrown in this would never be my first choice.
The Stokie that Mal references above is really good and has been my go to recording for years. I have the Masur/Leipzig set but I always found 3 and 4 to Teutonic for my taste. If I had to pick my current favorite it is Abbado/LSO, which is a nice combination of sleek virtuosity and Mediterranean warmth in a very warm and natural recording. There are a few odd pauses in the inner movements of the Abbado but they are brief speed bumps, not train derailments

[LeMartinPecheur]

I fear that we are now stuck with them, but may I suggest that we express our dissatisfaction directly to BBC rather than via these weekly threads.

I've already done that and would be so-o-o grateful if others would do so too, and cease all the predictable, repetitious postings here week after week

[MickyD]

I've not had a chance to listen to the programme yet, but from Mal's excellent summary, do I take it that no HIP recording was considered? That would be a big omission, as far as I am concerned.

[Cockney Sparrow]

96 v 192 in a blind test? Er....

IIRC Qobuz only offered the 24/192 files (for purchase) at the time of release, so I just thought, why not....
Having streamed at 16/44.1 on the earlier Qobuz HiFi, I was struck immediately by the quality of the hi-res JEG 1/4 though, from the start of No.1 (having almost given up on the LSO Live CDs/lossless because of their sound)...I made it my record of the year at the time. It has a special purity and presence.

I've only a tiny handful of such things, (Da Capo Holmboe and Nielsen), all sonically exceptional, but then you hear something like the Krivine 4/5 (CD/lossless WAVs), and you think, wow, who needs hi-res.... many variables, all is relative.

May try the Abbado(s) later, LSO through the ages etc....

I've already done that and would be so-o-o grateful if others would do so too, and cease all the predictable, repetitious postings here week after week

I think a petition would just enable them to identify us as "that group of malcontents who in 20 years won't be here to listen, and are not the target audience we are" (desperately?) "trying to build…".

I'm travelling at the moment, but we could do with a researched guide to the complaints policy process, not just feedback - where the complaint is logged, acknowledged, and the consideration of it recorded, and dare we hope, communicated to the complainant.

[verismissimo]

I've not had a chance to listen to the programme yet, but from Mal's excellent summary, do I take it that no HIP recording was considered? That would be a big omission, as far as I am concerned.

Wot no Krivine … ? That's been my greatest pleasure of the past week …

[jayne lee wilson]

I'll listen later, but from Mal's summary and other comments here, there seems to have been no mention of Abbado 1968 or VPO/JEG...?
You learn so much from comparing two recordings, years apart, from the same conductor, this does seem an odd omission, especially as both conductors get a lot of attention in the various reviews and commentaries...and they are very distinct in each case. All these were highly regarded in Gramophone on release - and considered in great & comparative detail by writers whose knowledge one could only have profound respect for.

See my comments above, but the 1968 Abbado is something special, from a classic band in a classic era, I would think clearly superior (audibly, musically - honest!) to 1985 for anyone who hears it, so fresh and youthful.... (excellent remastering in The Decca Years set (vividly present acoustic), there may be other releases to seek out).

OB's two choices seem to find a good balance, will return to CBSO/Gardner soon....As for no Krivine, or Pablo, well.... but anyway not to jump the gun here.... laters....!

A good subject for a Gramophone Collection now, you'd have - Historical, HIPPS-Moderne, HIPPS-Authentic, "Full-size", New View (say), and other categories....
(I still think they'd choose YNS as tops though....... WAY out of the ordinary in every respect, "rewards repeated listening" - the more you hear it, the more you adore it, excerpts will never do it justice...)

[LeMartinPecheur]

following on from my #10 in which I mentioned a once well-regarded HMV Concert Classics LP by the Philharmonia Promenade Orch under Heinz Wallberg (recording issue date 1961), I decided to give it a spin after the BaL today, together with samples from my other recordings.

Firstly, can anyone help with the orchestra? I'd guess it's a reduced-strength Philharmonia as the strings are far less dominant (sc. overwhelming) than in the DG Abbado and all the better for that! If so I wonder whether the decision to cut back was made on artistic grounds by conductor or producer, or purely on economic grounds. If the former, we might have here a proto-HIPP performance! OK the recording is a teeny bit thin but fully acceptable to these ears, not dissimilar to the Cleveland/ Szell CD on which more below.

A major failing with the LP that I'd forgotten in the decades since last playing it is that it's un-banded (unimportant per se) but with no pauses between movements - BAD! Mov't #1 is bright, airy, sunny with well-graded dynamics. Not much piu animato at end - was I the only one baffled by Mr Condy's comments about this marking, that it didn't mean speeding up but was more like an instruction not to slow down? If so, wouldn't a tempo have done the job far better?

#2 Wallberg's Andante con moto is probably at the slow end of acceptable but as Condy said, andante means walking pace. Where does the story about a church processional come from? Mendelssohn himself? This still leaves an awful lot of latitude depending perhaps on whether one imagines a penitential Easter procession, or a festive one in bright Italian sunshine! Any clues anyone? Something that JLW (to whom all respect) hasn't commented on is the extreme difference in this mov't between Abbado's two LSO recordings: DG 5'56 but Decca 6'57, nearly a full minute slower than my next slowest, Bern SO/ Maag at 6'00- a consistently slow and sleepy performance alas and one that may well go out the door now (Szell manages it in 5'16 without sounding rushed!)

Wallberg's #3 is brisk, like most others not much hint here of Condy's minuet. Nice horns in the trio but maybe a touch too far back. If this is a reduced Philharmonia might it be Alan Civil leading?

#4 starts really furiously - no criticism intended - in tempo and sonority. Some slight, welcome relaxation later though before returning to real zip. Think this is probably the movement I'd choose to try to impress other boarders. Alas, as far as I can see the recording hasn't ever made it onto CD. Sic transit...

Of my other recordings I've already dismissed the Maag. The DG Abbado sounds too thick and heavy esp. in the strings as JLW has already said. I've yet to get as enthused as she is about his Decca one, especially with its very slow andante, but will try again now I've tracked it down in a pile of ex-charity shop LPs For a real fizzer in tempos and orchestral brilliance (including a lithe, bright, open basic sonority) I'll take the Cleveland/ Szell. Perhaps I really do need a true chamber-orch, maybe HIPP performance?

But I did say in #10 that I probably wouldn't be rushing to trouble the bank manager after this particular BaL, and at the end of the road most performances of this work sound to me enough like the Italian to give pleasure. Nothing like such a challenging, demanding work for me as Mahler, Bruckner, Elgar, Beethoven, Shoster (etc, etc) symphonies where recordings or concert performances are concerned!

PS If not already clear I would say the Wallberg is well worth a charity-shop punt. This is what it looks like

And merits CD reissue too IMVHO.

[DracoM]

Many thx.

[richardfinegold]

I've not had a chance to listen to the programme yet, but from Mal's excellent summary, do I take it that no HIP recording was considered? That would be a big omission, as far as I am concerned.

would you consider JEG/LSO HIP, or just HIP informed?

[Master Jacques]

FMB was a Master and knew how to create satisfying structures. My motto? "Steady Eddy"

I couldn't agree more. Mendelssohn performers these days tend to skittle along while throwing in way too much rubato and fussy dynamics. He is one composer who has not, in my opinion, been helped by the lucid and lithe revelations of HIP. Too many performances of the slow movements in the string quartets and symphonies go for showy surface at the expense of steady substance. "Andante" in particular is often interpreted as "Allegretto". I didn't listen to BaL this morning and haven't heard Edward Gardner's version, so this isn't a comment for/against that in particular.

[cloughie]

following on from my #10 in which I mentioned a once well-regarded HMV Concert Classics LP by the Philharmonia Promenade Orch under Heinz Wallberg (recording issue date 1961), I decided to give it a spin after the BaL today, together with samples from my other recordings.

Firstly, can anyone help with the orchestra? I'd guess it's a reduced-strength Philharmonia as the strings are far less dominant (sc. overwhelming) than in the DG Abbado and all the better for that! If so I wonder whether the decision to cut back was made on artistic grounds by conductor or producer, or purely on economic grounds. If the former, we might have here a proto-HIPP performance! OK the recording is a teeny bit thin but fully acceptable to these ears, not dissimilar to the Cleveland/ Szell CD on which more below.

A major failing with the LP that I'd forgotten in the decades since last playing it is that it's un-banded (unimportant per se) but with no pauses between movements - BAD! Mov't #1 is bright, airy, sunny with well-graded dynamics. Not much piu animato at end - was I the only one baffled by Mr Condy's comments about this marking, that it didn't mean speeding up but was more like an instruction not to slow down? If so, wouldn't a tempo have done the job far better?

#2 Wallberg's Andante con moto is probably at the slow end of acceptable but as Condy said, andante means walking pace. Where does the story about a church processional come from? Mendelssohn himself? This still leaves an awful lot of latitude depending perhaps on whether one imagines a penitential Easter procession, or a festive one in bright Italian sunshine! Any clues anyone? Something that JLW (to whom all respect) hasn't commented on is the extreme difference in this mov't between Abbado's two LSO recordings: DG 5'56 but Decca 6'57, nearly a full minute slower than my next slowest, Bern SO/ Maag at 6'00- a consistently slow and sleepy performance alas and one that may well go out the door now (Szell manages it in 5'16 without sounding rushed!)

Wallberg's #3 is brisk, like most others not much hint here of Condy's minuet. Nice horns in the trio but maybe a touch too far back. If this is a reduced Philharmonia might it be Alan Civil leading?

#4 starts really furiously - no criticism intended - in tempo and sonority. Some slight, welcome relaxation later though before returning to real zip. Think this is probably the movement I'd choose to try to impress other boarders. Alas, as far as I can see the recording hasn't ever made it onto CD. Sic transit...

Of my other recordings I've already dismissed the Maag. The DG Abbado sounds too thick and heavy esp. in the strings as JLW has already said. I've yet to get as enthused as she is about his Decca one, especially with its very slow andante, but will try again now I've tracked it down in a pile of ex-charity shop LPs For a real fizzer in tempos and orchestral brilliance (including a lithe, bright, open basic sonority) I'll take the Cleveland/ Szell. Perhaps I really do need a true chamber-orch, maybe HIPP performance?

But I did say in #10 that I probably wouldn't be rushing to trouble the bank manager after this particular BaL, and at the end of the road most performances of this work sound to me enough like the Italian to give pleasure. Nothing like such a challenging, demanding work for me as Mahler, Bruckner, Elgar, Beethoven, Shoster (etc, etc) symphonies where recordings or concert performances are concerned!

PS If not already clear I would say the Wallberg is well worth a charity-shop punt. This is what it looks like

And merits CD reissue too IMVHO.

I wonder why the Wallberg was mentioned as it does not appear to be available even as a download?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

would you consider JEG/LSO HIP, or just HIP informed?

"Historically Informed informed"?

[jayne lee wilson]

I couldn't agree more. Mendelssohn performers these days tend to skittle along while throwing in way too much rubato and fussy dynamics. He is one composer who has not, in my opinion, been helped by the lucid and lithe revelations of HIP. Too many performances of the slow movements in the string quartets and symphonies go for showy surface at the expense of steady substance. "Andante" in particular is often interpreted as "Allegretto". I didn't listen to BaL this morning and haven't heard Edward Gardner's version, so this isn't a comment for/against that in particular.

Have you heard Krivine or Heras-Casado? Way more going on there than "lucid and lithe"....neither are especially fast, in fact the Pablo-inspired Freiburgers are rather relaxed and refined until the finale, with lovely softly translucent timbres (as I said above, this might be heard as all-too-beautiful...). Let's not forget that tempi or timings aren't everything; it is more about responsiveness and characterisation in phrase colour and - dynamics (this is one reason why I prefer the earlier Abbado to the later- the feeling that every bar matters).

Fussy?
What I would call micro dynamics - subtle shifts of level especially in second-group passagework or lower levels, have a way of bringing music to life in smaller ensembles which a large SO can't usually manage. This is more apparent if you listen at fairly high levels to CD or higher resolutions of course.
As for rubato, few of the recordings I looked at closely this week (several from the last decade or so) exhibited any obvious musical exaggerations - in fact any perceptible rubato was scarce and subtle, except in the 1986 Abbado where I pointed out such Romantic/agogic over-emphases.

(As for Steady Ed's "Steady Eddy" ......"my" Mendelssohn is a music of constantly shifting colours, rhythms, textures, moods, and musical evocations - very volatile, and I feel that from the 1st Symphony's whirlwind outer movements, the intensities of Op.12/13, to the devastating last Op.80 Quartet..... the music really bears this out...)

[MickyD]

would you consider JEG/LSO HIP, or just HIP informed?

Just informed, I think.

They may sound a little untidy at times, but I love the earthiness of the Hanover Band in this work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtq9Xg_0_1U

[mikealdren]

Not just a twofer but a very short 'short list' was all that was discussed. And no explanation of how the short list was arrived at apart saying that earlier recordings were discounted as this piece requires modern, high quality sound. Reminds me of the infamous Beethoven Violin Concerto review when only a short list was considered. Is this another sign of the future of the programme?