BaL 1.06.19 - Mendelssohn: Symphony no. 4 "Italian"

[Goon525]

Just listened to the first movement of JEG. Mind you, at a mere 96/24 via Qobuz. (Incidentally, Jayne, clearly we’re both audiophiles even if your musical powers of analysis exceed mine. Can you differentiate 192/24 from 96/24? I can usually manage 96/24 from 44/16, but struggle to spot a difference between 192 and 96.) Yes, it’s a terrific performance, probably a more sensible full orchestra recommendation now than Sinopoli. The Barbican sound (and I have it reasonably fresh in my mind, having been at the Haitink 90th birthday concert a few weeks ago) seems pretty accurate, albeit I do find the strings dry at forte or above. As you say, plenty of presence. But can Jiggy win BaL two weeks in a row?

[jayne lee wilson]

96 v 192 in a blind test? Er....

IIRC Qobuz only offered the 24/192 files (for purchase) at the time of release, so I just thought, why not....
Having streamed at 16/44.1 on the earlier Qobuz HiFi, I was struck immediately by the quality of the hi-res JEG 1/4 though, from the start of No.1 (having almost given up on the LSO Live CDs/lossless because of their sound)...I made it my record of the year at the time. It has a special purity and presence.

I've only a tiny handful of such things, (Da Capo Holmboe and Nielsen), all sonically exceptional, but then you hear something like the Krivine 4/5 (CD/lossless WAVs), and you think, wow, who needs hi-res.... many variables, all is relative.

May try the Abbado(s) later, LSO through the ages etc....

[richardfinegold]

I am listening to the Abbado LSO now and enjoying it thoroughly. I bought this CD years ago and don't remember doing so but the album notes are mostly in Japanese, so perhaps it is a different mastering than others may have, but it sounds glorious. The LSO of 1985 sounds much better in Walthamasow Hall than than from the JEG Barbican, either on Blu Ray or SACD. The finale isn't as frenetic as under JEG, but the latter is an interesting party trick that pales with repeated hearing. Abbado applies just enough rubato to heighten the drama

[Petrushka]

I am listening to the Abbado LSO now and enjoying it thoroughly. I bought this CD years ago and don't remember doing so but the album notes are mostly in Japanese, so perhaps it is a different mastering than others may have, but it sounds glorious. The LSO of 1985 sounds much better in Walthamasow Hall than than from the JEG Barbican, either on Blu Ray or SACD. The finale isn't as frenetic as under JEG, but the latter is an interesting party trick that pales with repeated hearing. Abbado applies just enough rubato to heighten the drama

The 1985 LSO/Abbado has long been my 'go to' recording of the 'Italian'.

[jayne lee wilson]

What I mainly felt listening to LSO/Abbado vintage 1985 Mendelssohn 4th (DG c/w 5,16/44.1 Qobuz-S) was….too many strings….the winds play well enough, but they are fairly recessed in the spaciously-set large SO, competent but anonymous. They enter, they play their part, and then….those sweet, rich, large-complement strings sweep back in.
I didn’t care for the Romantic emphases in the strings in the middle movements either, so my attention did begin to wander. I wanted more pointed characterisation of the militaristic strain of the trio. Here, it was just…. cleanly, politely played and…. not much more. Violins/wind/horns dialoguing neutralised.
It all feels rather generalised, orchestrally and stylistically. This might just as well have been some MOR Brahms, really.
The Orchestra don’t sound completely happy in the very quick finale either - all the notes are (just about) there, but expression is rather neutralised by sheer pace. It all becomes a bit of an onslaught, where one might prefer a whirlwind. (Abbado adds agogic rhetorical emphases towards the end, for good, or ill, measure).

(JEG’s marvellous achievement in this finale, (fractionally) quicker still but with a lean-toned smaller orchestra, makes for a stunning contrast.
Saltarello timings: JEG 5'18, Abbado 1985 5'21, Abbado 1968 5'44.

***

I much preferred Abbado’s earlier 1968 LSO 4th (Decca, Abbado The Decca Years, 16/44.1 Qobuz-S) , for its classic-analogue immediacy, guttiness and drive in the less-saturated strings, and more present, individually characterised winds and horns. You sense those horns really caring for their nuances in the trio; their dialoguing with violins/winds is witty and charming; the “Military” climax is better defined and characterised too. (The comparison with the 1985 trio focusses the difference between the two Abbado recordings very neatly).

Throughout, I felt there was a wider range of phrasal expression and tonal colour here, a surprising delicacy in string melodies.
So a fresher, livelier more responsive interpretation than the later, sonically more distanced effort, where the generous acoustic knocks off some impact and immediacy in the finale despite its quicker tempo (as noted, the LSO don’t seem so easy with this, either). The 1968 finale almost rivals JEG for punch and precision, effortlessly thrown off, just as you’d expect from Previn’s racy 60s band of all-stars. (Only a year or two after their legendary Walton 1st).

With a full-size SO, of this vintage, it’s hard to imagine a better result. Some orchestra the LSO were then!

[Goon525]

Blimey, Jayne, how many times have you listened to this (admittedly rather wonderful) symphony in the last few days? I’ve only listened to two and a bit, and feel ready to give it a rest for a while! But that explains why I’ve never been asked to do a BaL!

[edashtav]

A very perceptive comparison of the two Abbado versions, Jayne, thank you.

By Saturday, we'll all be ready for an Italian Holiday. We'll come back singing Funiculì Funiculà and trunks filled with Richard Strauss's Aus Italien ready for a Summer Bal.

We could be in for a shock on Saturday morning, what if Oliver loves the stripped down, simplified , steady style of Mendelssohn's later revisions to movements II,III,and IV? That would narrow his field of vision! It may have to be JEG.

[jayne lee wilson]

Blimey, Jayne, how many times have you listened to this (admittedly rather wonderful) symphony in the last few days? I’ve only listened to two and a bit, and feel ready to give it a rest for a while! But that explains why I’ve never been asked to do a BaL!

Quite a few! (And excerpts apart from those commented on)...
As someone who often suffers from familiarity syndrome with "core" classical rep., (and happiest when hearing new releases of both familiar, or new or unfamiliar works) I'm so pleased that Mendelssohn always seems to escape it - I love, love, love this composer.
I'd thought the fiddle concerto, played so often at home in childhood (a vast wooden radiogram with 78s, when I preferred Fluff Freeman), was well, over.....
Along came a Faust and a(n) Heras-Casado....

Ed - re. the 1833/4 2nd version, do check out that Musikkollegium Winterthur/Holliger (mdg) I linked to upthread... it's one of my favourites, out-of-left-field you could say...

(see Gramophone 1/86 for EG's review of the later LSO/Abbado set, with perceptive 1968/85 comparisons...)

[teamsaint]

Quite a few! (And excerpts apart from those commented on)...
As someone who often suffers from familiarity syndrome with "core" classical rep., (and happiest when hearing new releases of both familiar, or new or unfamiliar works) I'm so pleased that Mendelssohn always seems to escape it - I love, love, love this composer.
I'd thought the fiddle concerto, played so often at home in childhood (a vast wooden radiogram with 78s, when I preferred Fluff Freeman), was well, over.....
Along came a Faust and a(n) Heras-Casado....

Ed - re. the 1833/4 2nd version, do check out that Musikkollegium Winterthur/Holliger (mdg) I linked to upthread... it's one of my favourites, out-of-left-field you could say...

(see Gramophone 1/86 for EG's review of the later LSO/Abbado set, with perceptive 1968/85 comparisons...)

I saw/heard ( which is is again ? Both I suppose ) Faust perform the Violin Concerto at the Anvil a couple of years ago. She was quite wonderful. By the end, she had us utterly convinced. A special night from a really special musician. Just downloaded the H-C recording.
I'm never up on new releases, but that will all change once the first edition of my shiny new subscription of Gramophone hits the doormat.
All I need now is the time to read the thing................

[jayne lee wilson]

Just listening to Wiener Philharmoniker/JEG.....
...first impressions, something like.... gorgeous, but....

[Barbirollians]

Going back to the Barbirolli I see that Peter Quantrill in this March’s Gramophone described it as supple and beautifully sprung - there are definitely few more exciting accounts of the finale . It has a capital wildness about it said the original reviewer in 1948.

[visualnickmos]

Just listening to Wiener Philharmoniker/JEG.....
...first impressions, something like.... gorgeous, but....

Will we have the pleasure of reading your comparison of the JEGs? London vs. Vienna.
I gain much from your very splendid - and stylishly written - 'critiques'
Thank you.

I'm intrigued by "...gorgeous, but......" Where wil we go?

[jayne lee wilson]

A near-perfect opening for Wiener Philharmoniker/John Eliot Gardiner (DG 1999, 16/44.1 Qobuz-S), energetic but graceful, lovely tone (with perceptible vibrato!) from the violins; winds nicely pert & prominent, in a beautifully-balanced Musikverein perspective; very hard to fault, and the development reaches a powerful but never overbearing climax. Time and space for the detail of the thematically-reflective leadback to tell upon the heart’s ear.
I was surprised how overtly expressive this reading sounds, in the andante especially; but JEG’s disciplined shaping of phrase and rhythmic control seem to have married well to the VPO’s own distinctive tonal character; the result is sweet but never saccharine; the rhythms alert, but never punchy or aggressive. Superb timbral blend and clarity.

Superior in most respects to the similarly spacious Abbado 1985, better wind/strings balance, finer-toned orchestra, lovely acoustic; the andante con moto is surprisingly Romantic for JEG, but not overdone as Abbado sometimes is (in both inner movements). There isn’t the excitement here of Abbado 1968 of course, or COE/YNS (latter easily a VPO-match for sheer beauty too), but this could well appeal to those who prefer something less driven. So the only drawback with Gardiner in Vienna is a lack of sheer physical excitement; despite a pretty fast finale, one feels that something is always held back.

A great recording for anyone who prefers the full-size SO in this piece, but might enjoy acquaintance with one subtly freshened by HIPPs-informed tempi, clarity and alertness.
In older traditional reviewing terms, “a good one to live with”; but despite the beauty, balance and excellent playing and recording, a shade too controlled for me; I find all the beauty a little…. studied.

So I preferred JEG’s leaner, lither, finally more dramatic LSO Live reading (24/192 WAV download).
In London you have tonal purity, rather than beauty; plain-Barbican neutrality rather than the Golden-sounding Hall; but I find the LSO’s tighter grip and punch more compelling, in the finale above all. But take the vivace through the development/leadback to the close, to see what I mean. There’s a responsiveness here, subtler and livelier dynamics, wonderful release and impact at the climax; even the leadback itself has greater plangency.
(This has much to do with the LSO-live-event spontaneity of course (howsoever edited), a feeling of joy off-the-leash, compared to the deeply thoughtful fastidiously balanced Musikverein taping, which latter never quite carries me away.).
Or to put it yet another way, JEG gets exactly what he wants (thrillingly) from the LSO: in Vienna, there’s a certain meeting halfway going on.
(And the more I listened to the latter, the safer it seemed…).
If you can find your way to comparing JEG/LSO/VPO, you’ll find it very rewarding and instructive; master conductor and long-aged great orchestras, all deeply involved with each other. Negotiations, compromises, achievements…


(A good bonus on the DG-VPO is the inclusion of movements 2-4 in the later revisions, as the last three tracks on the album (after the Reformation) so, easy to program in.)

[visualnickmos]

Thank you Jayne.
Brilliant! What more can I say.... just that I now want to hear for myself the two 'side-by-side!'

[Goon525]

Thank you Jayne.
Brilliant! What more can I say.... just that I now want to hear for myself the two 'side-by-side!'

Which you could do courtesy of a Qobuz subscription. But, yes, isn’t Jayne's analysis amazing, and probably far more detailed than we'll get on Saturday morning.