BaL 18.05.19 - Sibelius: Lemminkäinen Suite, Op.22

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  • jayne lee wilson
    Banned
    • Jul 2011
    • 10711

    I find the Four Legends so powerful, beautiful and memorable it never occurs to me to doubt their “quality”. Calling them derivative seems to me more of a box-checking exercise. Dutifully noting the Wagnerian or Brucknerian or Berliozian input, it is easy to overlook how original and unusual the complete movements are. (I think the best classification for the work would be: Symphonic Suite).

    Draw attention to nature-murmurs here, Parsifalian agonies there, but be careful to note the unusually flowing continuity of the longest Maidens and In Tuonela movements, which have a truly Sibelian approach to motive, development and multiple or double climax (or anti-development… cf Nightride and Sunrise in the light of the Maidens…Largo of the 4th Symphony re. In Tuonela…).
    There is more than a hint of minimalism in their rhythmic obsessiveness. They both show a fluidity and elusiveness of form and melody that goes beyond their supposed earlier Romantic models. Try noting down the ideas as they occur, then tracking them through each piece….not so easy!
    Looking forward as well as back: Parsifalian agony In Tuonela, but as a new poetical and musical unity, does it sound like anything else beyond Sibelius, really? Until Rachmaninov’s Isle of the Dead comes along, painting in similar tones.
    I trust I don’t need to remind anyone here of the mythical and artistic parallels.
    (Even Reger seems to notice The Swan briefly, as he crosses the dark waters of his gentler, less forbidding picture).

    Then the shorter, catchier movements create a fine balance, very symphonic to these ears, and - this works well, whether you place the gorgeous, haunting, sad black Swan 2nd or 3rd. Which seems to me another mark of their quality, especially as Lemminkainen’s Homecoming has a distinct finale character about it.
    Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 20-05-19, 16:36.

    Comment

    • cloughie
      Full Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 22205

      Originally posted by Master Jacques View Post
      I did a double take on this, as somehow I'd assumed that Kamu post-dated Gibson. But you are of course right, and Kamu pre-dates him by a year or two. What's shocking, is that the complete Kamu DG recording is not available on CD, and does not even seem to be available as a download (excepting the Return which I can see on Amazon Prime.) Doubtless somebody will put me right if that's wrong - as I hope it is - but that would account for Kamu's non-appearance on last weekend's BaL.

      Meanwhile, I shall hold on to my much-played LP!
      It is also avaialable on Australian Eloquence - I have a spare copy of the Splendours du Nord if you’re interested!

      Comment

      • cloughie
        Full Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 22205

        Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
        I find the Four Legends so powerful, beautiful and memorable it never occurs to me to doubt their “quality”. Calling them derivative seems to me more of a box-checking exercise. Dutifully noting the Wagnerian or Brucknerian or Berliozian input, it is easy to overlook how original and unusual the complete movements are. (I think the best classification for the work would be: Symphonic Suite).

        Draw attention to nature-murmurs here, Parsifalian agonies there, but be careful to note the unusually flowing continuity of the longest Maidens and In Tuonela movements, which have a truly Sibelian approach to motive, development and multiple or double climax (or anti-development… cf Nightride and Sunrise in the light of the Maidens…Largo of the 4th Symphony re. In Tuonela…).
        There is more than a hint of minimalism in their rhythmic obsessiveness. They both show a fluidity and elusiveness of form and melody that goes beyond their supposed earlier Romantic models. Try noting down the ideas as they occur, then tracking them through each piece….not so easy!
        Looking forward as well as back: Parsifalian agony In Tuonela, but as a new poetical and musical unity, does it sound like anything else beyond Sibelius, really? Until Rachmaninov’s Isle of the Dead comes along, painting in similar tones.
        I trust I don’t need to remind anyone here of the mythical and artistic parallels.
        (Even Reger seems to notice The Swan briefly, as he crosses the dark waters of his gentler, less forbidding picture).

        Then the shorter, catchier movements create a fine balance, very symphonic to these ears, and - this works well, whether you place the gorgeous, haunting, sad black Swan 2nd or 3rd. Which seems to me another mark of their quality, especially as Lemminkainen’s Homecoming has a distinct finale character about it.
        Jayne - how so well put - POWERFUL BEAUTIFUL AND MEMORABLE they are. Have you heard Beecham’s ‘Return’ - he certainly doesn’t waste any time getting him back! Also do try the Kamu complete legends if you haven’t to date.

        Comment

        • Master Jacques
          Full Member
          • Feb 2012
          • 1953

          Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
          ... yours for abt £6 :



          (more details on amazon.fr :




          [ ... with thanks to Pulcinella, who flagged this up in#105 above.]
          That's wonderful, Vinteuil with thanks to Pulcinella also - I have purchased a copy (most appropriately) from The Polar Bear on Amazon.

          Comment

          • Master Jacques
            Full Member
            • Feb 2012
            • 1953

            Originally posted by cloughie View Post
            It is also avaialable on Australian Eloquence - I have a spare copy of the Splendours du Nord if you’re interested!
            Thank you cloughie, but as you can see I took the plunge with an Amazon marketplace seller before reading your post. Stupid of me to have missed the Eloquence issue, too: for some reason Amazon are particularly bad at cataloguing them for the search engine.

            Comment

            • cloughie
              Full Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 22205

              Originally posted by Master Jacques View Post
              Thank you cloughie, but as you can see I took the plunge with an Amazon marketplace seller before reading your post. Stupid of me to have missed the Eloquence issue, too: for some reason Amazon are particularly bad at cataloguing them for the search engine.
              Yes I’ve noticed that. Eloquence have a good site of their own which I use as a source and then search Amazon in whatever way I can once I know a disc exists. The Kamu Eloquence also has some old Jochum recordings of Sibelius - not a conductor you would normally associate with the composer.

              Comment

              • edashtav
                Full Member
                • Jul 2012
                • 3672

                Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
                Hunting Fathers, Young Apollo...

                ... or Romanian Dances, Hungarian Folk Dances?



                .
                I shall be obtuse and answer the composer who assigned those opus numbers once, not thrice, vinteuil.

                Comment

                • edashtav
                  Full Member
                  • Jul 2012
                  • 3672

                  Well defended, Jayne Lee Wilson.

                  Just to pick a nit. You wrote: "Then the shorter, catchier movements create a fine balance, very symphonic to these ears, and - this works well, whether you place the gorgeous, haunting, sad black Swan 2nd or 3rd. Which seems to me another mark of their quality, especially as Lemminkainen’s Homecoming has a distinct finale character about it."

                  A reminder, Jayne: the early version of the 4th Legend was 100% longer than the finished article. It made the whole work over 50 minutes in length. I'm thankful that Sibelius realised that Brucknerian prolixity was, for him, a youthful indiscretion: that less meant more.

                  Comment

                  • Master Jacques
                    Full Member
                    • Feb 2012
                    • 1953

                    Originally posted by cloughie View Post
                    Yes I’ve noticed that. Eloquence have a good site of their own which I use as a source and then search Amazon in whatever way I can once I know a disc exists. The Kamu Eloquence also has some old Jochum recordings of Sibelius - not a conductor you would normally associate with the composer.
                    Yes indeed, so I see (I found it on Amazon US and worked backwards). I'm surprised those 1955 Jochum jobs ever made it back to CD - but then, that's Australian Eloquence for you (and all of us). They're a wonderful resource - who'd ever have thought otherwise, that the enjoyable trio of Horst Stein's Sibelius recordings would attract an integrale?

                    Comment

                    • jayne lee wilson
                      Banned
                      • Jul 2011
                      • 10711

                      Originally posted by edashtav View Post
                      Well defended, Jayne Lee Wilson.

                      Just to pick a nit. You wrote: "Then the shorter, catchier movements create a fine balance, very symphonic to these ears, and - this works well, whether you place the gorgeous, haunting, sad black Swan 2nd or 3rd. Which seems to me another mark of their quality, especially as Lemminkainen’s Homecoming has a distinct finale character about it."

                      A reminder, Jayne: the early version of the 4th Legend was 100% longer than the finished article. It made the whole work over 50 minutes in length. I'm thankful that Sibelius realised that Brucknerian prolixity was, for him, a youthful indiscretion: that less meant more.
                      I referred to and commented upon Vanska's BIS recordings of the original 1st and last Lemminkainen legends earlier in the thread....and in particular recommended a close listen to that original Homecoming - which already has a distinct finale character even in its longer form. And works quite well itself - try playing it after the three familiar movements.

                      But I was keener to defend (in #151) the two longer movements anyway, since they tend to take on most of the critical flak. I'm very glad Sibelius didn't subject those to similarly drastic pruning.....hearing the 1896 Maidens movement (in fact a little shorter than the revision) helps you appreciate just how beautifully achieved and "finished" the revised version is.
                      Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 20-05-19, 21:02.

                      Comment

                      • cloughie
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 22205

                        Originally posted by Master Jacques View Post
                        Yes indeed, so I see (I found it on Amazon US and worked backwards). I'm surprised those 1955 Jochum jobs ever made it back to CD - but then, that's Australian Eloquence for you (and all of us). They're a wonderful resource - who'd ever have thought otherwise, that the enjoyable trio of Horst Stein's Sibelius recordings would attract an integrale?
                        Not only the Stein but there is also a Jussi Jalas 3CD set, including yes The Leminkainen Suite. The Jensen is also available on Eloquence as part of a 2CD set.
                        Last edited by cloughie; 20-05-19, 22:01.

                        Comment

                        • Nick Armstrong
                          Host
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 26575

                          Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                          I referred to and commented upon Vanska's BIS recordings of the original 1st and last Lemminkainen legends earlier in the thread....and in particular recommended a close listen to that original Homecoming - which already has a distinct finale character even in its longer form. And works quite well itself - try playing it after the three familiar movements.

                          Very valuable posts, yours jayne, on this thread. The Homecoming has long been a favourite 'one off' orchestral showpiece for me, exhilarating stuff. Looking forward to investigating the earlier one for the first time.

                          To my shame, however, I had never heard two of the other pieces in the Suite - and have never warmed to the Swan, for some reason, having only heard it in isolation.

                          I liked what I heard of the P Jarvi, and have also cued it up on Qobuz so that I can hear the whole Suite for the first time.

                          (In relation to the BAL itself, it's a shame that rather than attending to every word spoken by the reviewer, I now try to ignore the pointless AMcG interventions and the timewasting responses, just listening to the range of extracts and paying some passing attention to what the reviewer is able to say about them. It's a much less compelling programme now)
                          "...the isle is full of noises,
                          Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                          Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                          Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                          Comment

                          • edashtav
                            Full Member
                            • Jul 2012
                            • 3672

                            Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                            […]
                            But I was keener to defend (in #151) the two longer movements anyway, since they tend to take on most of the critical flak. I'm very glad Sibelius didn't subject those to similarly drastic pruning.....hearing the 1896 Maidens movement (in fact a little shorter than the revision) helps you appreciate just how beautifully achieved and "finished" the revised version is.
                            I hope to comment on the 'Maidens' later as I feel it remains a thematic and structural disaster. For the moment, I shall try to find some agreement with the many positive views expressed in this thread:

                            "Since Beethoven's time all the so-called symphonies, except Brahms's, have been symphonic poems. In many cases the composers have told us, or at least indicated, the programmes they had in mind; in others it is plain that there has been some story or landscape or set of images that the composer has set himself to illustrate. This is not my idea of a symphony. My symphonies are music conceived and worked out in terms of music and with no literary basis. I'm not a literary musician; for me music begins where words cease.... A symphony should be first and last music. Of course it has happened that, quite unbidden, some mental image has established itself in my mind in connection with a movement I have been writing, but the germ and the fertilisation of my symphonies have been solely musical. When I set out to write tone-poems it is a different matter. Tapiola, Pohjola's Daughter, Lemminkainen, The Swan of Tuonela, are suggested to me by our national poetry, but I do not pretend that they are symphonies."
                            Sibelius , 1934. [my emphases]

                            I'm intrigued by your notion, Jayne, that the four legends form a Symphonic Suite. When starting on his venture, Sibelius was struggling with the impact of Wagnerian opera and it would seem that the first legend to be composed, The Swan of Tuonela, started life (uncomfortably?) as an overture to an opera. I think it can lay claim to being Sibelius's first wholly successful piece. It is not jejune and shows formal mastery, ingenuity, and originality. It performs the function of a romantic, descriptive symphonic slow movement rather well given Sibelius's claim that the majority of symphonies since Beethoven's were symphonic poems.
                            Last edited by edashtav; 21-05-19, 01:26.

                            Comment

                            • Bryn
                              Banned
                              • Mar 2007
                              • 24688

                              Originally posted by Master Jacques View Post
                              I did a double take on this, as somehow I'd assumed that Kamu post-dated Gibson. But you are of course right, and Kamu pre-dates him by a year or two. What's shocking, is that the complete Kamu DG recording is not available on CD, and does not even seem to be available as a download (excepting the Return which I can see on Amazon Prime.) Doubtless somebody will put me right if that's wrong - as I hope it is - but that would account for Kamu's non-appearance on last weekend's BaL.

                              Meanwhile, I shall hold on to my much-played LP!
                              In addition to the option of the double CD shared with Karajan, the Kamu set of all four can be found in the DG Sibelius Edition boxed set, where it shared disc 3 with the 3rd Symphony:

                              Comment

                              • LMcD
                                Full Member
                                • Sep 2017
                                • 8690

                                Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
                                ... no - it was obviously Bernhard Bach [1676-1749]


                                .
                                Of course - silly me!
                                (And thanks, Jayne, for your splendid defence of this work. You didn't even find it necessary to put key assertions in bold ).

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