BaL 18.05.19 - Sibelius: Lemminkäinen Suite, Op.22

[edashtav]

I’m glad others love this work, and have multiple choices of recordings. Sorry to be a wet blanket, but my opinion is that Swan excepted, the rest of it is pretty forgettable third rate Sibelius

Good to see an independent, critical voice, Richard. I don't dislike the work but it's an apprentice piece. Both here, and in the attractive 1st symphony which follows, Jean is collecting, and then modifying, or rejecting models. The orchestration is colourful and glossy, not pared and granitic, and shades of Wagner and Tchaikovsky are yet to be fully absorbed. It's always interesting to hear a composer refining his 'dark materials' but this is not the real composer, merely,"work in progress".

[Maclintick]

Oh Richard, I'm so sorry to read that. For me, the first movement is absolutely thrilling and top notch Sibelius!

I'd agree with that, Micky. Having lived with JS's late masterpieces as constant companions & essential listening over 5 decades, I'm now rather abashed & shriven for not having paid due attention to some of the extraordinary and revolutionary pieces of his early years -- "Kullervo", "The Wood Nymph" & this "Lemminkäinen Suite" -- conventionally Post-Wagnerian in its basic elements, & yet the more one listens the more individual it seems, hypnotically cumulative in its impact -- those epic bass-drum rolls, the Mahlerian postlude to "The Swan" -- harp, timp, muted strings & cor anglais, almost anticipating the sound-world of "Ich Bin Der Welt". One is reminded that JS, on his Viennese sojourn, is recorded as revering Bruckner above all other contemporary composers.

[cloughie]

Good to see an independent, critical voice, Richard. I don't dislike the work but it's an apprentice piece. Both here, and in the attractive 1st symphony which follows, Jean is collecting, and then modifying, or rejecting models. The orchestration is colourful and glossy, not pared and granitic, and shades of Wagner and Tchaikovsky are yet to be fully absorbed. It's always interesting to hear a composer refining his 'dark materials' but this is not the real composer, merely,"work in orogress".

If it is an Apprentice piece, ed, all I can say is that he is ‘Hired’.

[Master Jacques]

If it is an Apprentice piece, ed, all I can say is that he is ‘Hired’.

An 'apprentice' to rank with any 'master', indeed!

There is hardly a bar in the (revised) version of the Lemminkäinen Suite which could be mistaken for anyone else, and not a note is wasted. No wonder, as the Maidens and Tuonela were heavily revised very late in his life (1939) at which point he also retouched the other two and changed the order, so it is a moot point whether this work is really "early" or "post-late".

In essence, once he'd found his style he stuck to it: which isn't to say that his experiments with symphonic form didn't become more sophisticated, because obviously they did.

I am with Maclintick on Kullervo (despite its occasional Tchaikovsky reminiscences) and - especially - The Wood Nymph, which astonished me when I first heard it, and still does.

[edashtav]

If it is an Apprentice piece, ed, all I can say is that he is ‘Hired’.

[edashtav]

An 'apprentice' to rank with any 'master', indeed!

There is hardly a bar in the (revised) version of the Lemminkäinen Suite which could be mistaken for anyone else, and not a note is wasted. No wonder, as the Maidens and Tuonela were heavily revised very late in his life (1939) at which point he also retouched the other two and changed the order, so it is a moot point whether this work is really "early" or "post-late".

In essence, once he'd found his style he stuck to it: which isn't to say that his experiments with symphonic form didn't become more sophisticated, because obviously they did.

I am with Maclintick on Kullervo (despite its occasional Tchaikovsky reminiscences) and - especially - The Wood Nymph, which astonished me when I first heard it, and still does.

I'm not going to reverse. In fact, I've yet to mention the obvious influence of Liszt on these four legends. Sibelius acknowledged as much when he wrote, " I think that I am really a musical painter and poet. I mean that Liszt’s musical standpoint is the one that comes closest to me. That [concept of a] symphonic poem. At the moment I am working on a subject which is very dear to me. I will tell you when I come back," Aino , 19th August 1894.

Master Jacques wrote,"No wonder, as the Maidens and Tuonela were heavily revised very late in his life (1939) at which point he also retouched the other two and changed the order, so it is a moot point whether this work is really "early" or "post-late". "

I feel that "heavily revised" is misleading: the excisions in no. 4 were extensive, but the nature and style of the music were not changed: elaborations were simplified, errors corrected but the music was not, I feel, changed from early to late.

Let's look at the style of the first legend: it is overtly erotic, there is an extended, almost never ending melody that is so post-Wagnerian, and typical of the voluptuous, late-Romantic music that was burgeoning across Europe in the 1890's. It is far from the lean, spare, nature music of late Sibelius e.g. Tapiola which has storms but they're not lustful effusions of human passion.

I understand what you're saying, Master Jacques, in this sentence, "There is hardly a bar in the (revised) version of the Lemminkäinen Suite which could be mistaken for anyone else, and not a note is wasted. ". Yes the wasted notes were cut out in the 1930s and Sibelius, at his most dependent, does have a consistent kernel which is recognisably his own, and that shines through even when dipped in Tchaikovsky honey, Lisztian romance or the essence of Berlioz's Damnation of Faust.

I stick to my position: Sibelius did not arrive at full maturity until he'd shed several outer skins including Wagner, Liszt,Tchaikovsky, Bruckner and Berlioz. That metamorphosis was incomplete in Lemminkäinen Suite in all of its formats.

The work is not negligible and it's a goldmine for musicologists but it's not masterful and it deserves only occasional live performances.

[vibratoforever]

I'm not going to reverse. In fact, I've yet to mention the obvious influence of Liszt on these four legends. Sibelius acknowledged as much when he wrote, " I think that I am really a musical painter and poet. I mean that Liszt’s musical standpoint is the one that comes closest to me. That [concept of a] symphonic poem. At the moment I am working on a subject which is very dear to me. I will tell you when I come back," Aino , 19th August 1894.

Master Jacques wrote,"No wonder, as the Maidens and Tuonela were heavily revised very late in his life (1939) at which point he also retouched the other two and changed the order, so it is a moot point whether this work is really "early" or "post-late". "

I feel that "heavily revised" is misleading: the excisions in no. 4 were extensive, but the nature and style of the music were not changed: elaborations were simplified, errors corrected but the music was not, I feel, changed from early to late.

Let's look at the style of the first legend: it is overtly erotic, there is an extended, almost never ending melody that is so post-Wagnerian, and typical of the voluptuous, late-Romantic music that was burgeoning across Europe in the 1890's. It is far from the lean, spare, nature music of late Sibelius e.g. Tapiola which has storms but they're not lustful effusions of human passion.

I understand what you're saying, Master Jacques, in this sentence, "There is hardly a bar in the (revised) version of the Lemminkäinen Suite which could be mistaken for anyone else, and not a note is wasted. ". Yes the wasted notes were cut out in the 1930s and Sibelius, at his most dependent, does have a consistent kernel which is recognisably his own, and that shines through even when dipped in Tchaikovsky honey, Lisztian romance or the essence of Berlioz's Damnation of Faust.

I stick to my position: Sibelius did not arrive at full maturity until he'd shed several outer skins including Wagner, Liszt,Tchaikovsky, Bruckner and Berlioz. That metamorphosis was incomplete in Lemminkäinen Suite in all of its formats.

The work is not negligible and it's a goldmine for musicologists but it's not masterful and it deserves only occasional live performances.

I just listen and enjoy, as I have for 50 years. Your judgement about "deserves only occasional live performance" is irrelevant and unjustifiable.

[Bryn]

I just listen and enjoy, as I have for 50 years. Your judgement about "deserves only occasional live performance" is irrelevant and unjustifiable.

Joe Hill has spoken.

[richardfinegold]

For me, the first real Siberian masterpiece is En Saga, which carries a lower Opus number than this Suite. I understand Edashtav analysis about the Composer seeming to experiment with the influences of Tchaikovsky and Wagner and Perhaps Bruckner, but for me non Swan numbers of this Suite sound to derivative, with their influences hanging like ill fitting clothes. There is some good and exciting music in there, but it’s overshadowed by the derivitiveness (is that a word?). That is why I called less than first rate Sibelius, keeping in mind that it is still better than what most of his contemporaries were producing. I agree with Ed that it’s worth the occasional outing, but hardly basic repertoire. Ymmv

[MickyD]

The work is not negligible and it's a goldmine for musicologists but it's not masterful and it deserves only occasional live performances.

In your opinion.

[LMcD]

I just listen and enjoy, as I have for 50 years. Your judgement about "deserves only occasional live performance" is irrelevant and unjustifiable.

Quite - but then, what do I know? And what's wrong with a bit of overt eroticism, may I ask?
I wouldn't be so bold as to define my views of this - or any other work - as a 'position'.

[BBMmk2]

Yesterday afternoon I listened to SNO/Gibson, thanks to a Forum member. Very enjoyable recording it was too.

[Bryn]

For me, the first real Siberian masterpiece is En Saga, . . .

Great typo there. As we know, Sibelius eventually suggested the saga element looked west to Iceland, rather than east to Siberia (hopefully not a nod towards the lingual difficulties off east-Asian renderings of "l" and "r".

[Master Jacques]

Let's look at the style of the first legend: it is overtly erotic, there is an extended, almost never ending melody that is so post-Wagnerian, and typical of the voluptuous, late-Romantic music that was burgeoning across Europe in the 1890's. It is far from the lean, spare, nature music of late Sibelius e.g. Tapiola which has storms but they're not lustful effusions of human passion.

I enjoyed your post, which has much in it. But I'm not convinced that The Maidens is so far out of line with "late" Sibelius. Listen to The Oceanides (if that's late enough for you!) for a development of similar materials (including long melodies) along more rigorously symphonic lines. Whole sections of The Tempest (e.g. Dance of the Nymphs) exhibit the same features. Even the Symphony No.6 consistently draws on the same fount of sunny naturalism, though here I'd agree that the long melodies grow from tiny, motivic kernels in a symphonic way.

Is the "symphonic" method of Sibelius superior to what we might call his "suite" or "incidental" method? It is an interesting question, and not just with him. I would challenge such an idea of musical hierarchy, which does not square with the experience of every listener, or any listener all of the time. I wouldn't be the only Sibelian to find some of the tone poems (e.g. Pohjola's Daughter or The Bard) fully the equal of the symphonies. They are equally complex, though the complexity is of a different - dramatic - order. And I think that's why some here see The Maidens as far more than an apprentice piece: it has its own questions and complexities, beyond thematic analysis. Which is why it has lasted.

The danger here - if I may call it that - is to conflate the complex economy of Sibelius's late, symphonic style with "maturity". A glance at the list of his opus numbers shows the marvellous, simply lucid structures and long melodies of pieces such as The Maidens continuing right through his creative life. And he did, after all, revise and rework the tone poem years after he (apocryphally) "completed" his career with Tapiola and The Tempest.

[edashtav]

Joe Hill has spoken.

Blimey,bryn, help! Far too recherché an observation for me. It must be 30 years since I last listened to my cassette recording of Alan Bush's Opera. The tapes survive but my cassette player, unlike Joe, has died. I recall a repeating chorus, "We Shall Not Be Moved" that may be the key to decoding your observation as it may apply to both sides of the current Sibelian argument as we/they are steeped in Siberian perma-frost.