BaL 18.05.19 - Sibelius: Lemminkäinen Suite, Op.22

[Bryn]

Just to nit-pick myself, Elias Lönnrot was of Swedish stock (as you know, at that time Finland was part of Sweden, which was part of Sibelius's motivation for working on the opera which led to these four pieces coming into existence) so it is surprising that a self-proclaimed "Scandi Expert" (based in Copenhagen) got the pronunciation so completely wrong.

And as you are undoubtedly also aware, Swedish was Sibelius's first language, though he attended a Finnish school.

[richardfinegold]

I’m glad others love this work, and have multiple choices of recordings. Sorry to be a wet blanket, but my opinion is that Swan excepted, the rest of it is pretty forgettable third rate Sibelius

[sidneyfox]

Thank you for clarifying what you meant, which boils down - I think - to "It's about how others see us". As pandering to public perception ("how others see us") got Radio 3 and the country into the mess we're all in, I think we should be foolish not to stand up for quality when we see it being degraded.

Oh yes, "quality". How to measure it? It's easier to do negatively, as we recognise it when we hear it (Anna Pickard yesterday). But if a broadcaster is peppering their chat with "sort of", "kind of", "like", "so...", "fairly..." and all the rest of the diluting chaff and inelegant verbiage about "structure" of performances - as opposed to the pieces themselves - which we got from Andrew Mellor yesterday, then I for one am absolutely sure that "quality" has gone out of the window.

Read The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance for a better exposition of the qualitative nexus - highly recommended.

With respect, I think you're missing the point (and getting a little irked about the changes over time, to BaL).

I'll start a thread about this rather than risk taking this one too far off course. I do hope you will take the trouble to contribute to it.

Btw, I read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" (to give it its proper title (I presume you did not mean one of those useful Haynes manuals?) or even "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values" to give its full title!) pretty soon after it came out in the 1970s and again about 5 years ago - but the Oakshott reference is more relevant.

[Bryn]

With respect, I think you're missing the point (and getting a little irked about the changes over time, to BaL).

I'll start a thread about this rather than risk taking this one too far off course. I do hope you will take the trouble to contribute to it.

Btw, I read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" (to give it its proper title (I presume you did not mean one of those useful Haynes manuals?) or even "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values" to give its full title!) pretty soon after it came out in the 1970s and again about 5 years ago - but the Oakshott reference is more relevant.

Surely, missing the point (or target) is an important characteristic in Zen.

[silvestrione]

Oooooh - plenty of positive posts on this Thread, silves; just not in response to the programme. The work is a pretty damn fine one, and there are several excellent recordings of it. It deserved better treatment on BaL - and, indeed, got it in the first 40-ish posts in this Thread.

Yes of course, well said, or well corrected!

Why is the later Lahti/ Vanska version not mentioned at all, on thread or BAL, or have I missed it?

[DracoM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XvhhPlOL4A

Lahti / Pekkala

[LMcD]

Finland isn’t part of Scandinavia?

The term 'Scandinavia' is generally understood to refer to Denmark, Sweden and Norway. The overall term for these plus Finland, Iceland and other chilly Northern places is 'Nordic countries'.

[jayne lee wilson]

I found little to annoy and much to enjoy in this BaL - a good range of excerpts, with comments clearly pertinent to their distinctive features. From my initial encounters via Qobuz Studio the final choice (one I hadn’t heard before) seems a very good one, another to set alongside previous favourites like Segerstam and Vanska. (Do remember to seek out those original versions of Lemminkainen on the earlier Vanska disc, they are fascinating, especially the Journey Home).
P-Jarvi has, as Mellor said, a lovely free-flowing pace and control through the Maidens piece; even if I would personally prefer a tighter rhythmic grip here (Stereo-Ormandy is quicker and tighter still).
The Stockholm Swan has a breath-catching delicacy and evocativeness…with dark, densely powerful brasses, the last two movements rise and blaze and fall and rise again, just as they should. A near-perfect performance, really, in wonderful sound. A discovery I’m very grateful for.

For me though, any loss of momentum or flow in the SRSO/Mikko Franck (keenly observed by AM) is more than offset by its sheer beauty, atmosphere and other considerable strengths. A shame that the Philadelphia/Ormandy was omitted, as the stereo version (which I listened to again recently on a stunning Toshiba-EMI remaster) would surely rank high on any shortlist. It’s a marvel of taut, colourful, and controlled orchestral realisation, and very idiomatic too - the Philadelphian sound never overwhelms the Sibelian. A comparison with their earlier mono recording would have been interesting too.

I was disappointed though, listening to the 320 kbps aac stream, in the sound of the excerpts in this BaL.
I have several of the recordings to hand, and the clips sounded oddly etiolated compared to my replay of the CDs, hi-res/lossless downloads or Qobuz streams here. It was a bit of a shock to go straight to Qobuz and hear the P-Jarvi finale immediately after the last excerpt played - a very nice shock and a major uplift, as in lossless form it is stunningly well played and recorded - spacious, dynamic, detailed.

***
After BaL, I was unwise enough to fast forward on through Record Review for Anna Pickard’s “review” of the new Castelletti Mahler 10, as her comments were appallingly trivial, dismissive and inaccurate. She said it sounded like “bad Berg, or bad Strauss”. Sorry, what? What?
Perhaps she could have given us examples of each of those? In fact the clever-clever Berg reference, if inadvertent, is not inapt, as he was fond of chamber-musical orchestration himself, which may resonate in the ears and imaginations of those listening to this marvellous new Laplands/Storgårds Mahler 10 version. (One to set alongside the Lied Von der Erde sound world of Mazzetti II).
Given Pickard’s dated, superficial comments on portamento, it was an obvious case of a reviewer who simply hadn’t spent enough time with a very challenging, remarkable new record. So we heard her prejudices rather than anything more considered or appreciative.

(For a closer look see my Mahler 10 review/thread here…

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?20169-New-Release-Special-Mahler-10-Remade-Again

(forgive large typeface - perils of copy&paste...)

[Master Jacques]

With respect, I think you're missing the point (and getting a little irked about the changes over time, to BaL).

No, I wasn't suggesting a general case. I was "getting irked" about this specific BaL, which was (in my opinion) substandard - mainly because (by my standards) the person chosen to make the comparisons didn't have a wide enough experience of the available recordings, or any intellectually or emotionally interesting insights about the piece in performance. It was "penny and slot" time-spinning.

As a Gemini, I am as it happens easily bored and addicted to change; so I find that your characterisation of forum members who criticise Record Review (for duplicating the chat formula used later in the program by superimposing it onto BaL) is wide of the mark.

Perhaps the problem is that, in a world of downloading, "songs", Amazon Prime and Spotify, the concept of Building a Library is itself outmoded and ought to be retired. Having said which, it seems to still work - as is clear even from this Sibelius thread - as a chatty introduction to pieces which particular listeners don't know too well. But these twofers do not encourage depth of interest, or hold any appeal for many loyal regulars.

That's really all I have to say about it (until next week, perhaps!)

[Master Jacques]

For me though, any loss of momentum or flow in the SRSO/Mikko Franck (keenly observed by AM) is more than offset by its sheer beauty, atmosphere and other considerable strengths. )

You are absolutely right about that. The poetic beauty and depth of the Franck performance seemed to elude one AM completely, although I thought the other AM was surprised to find this great performance so readily dismissed by somebody who clearly didn't "get" it. As I've previously said, the idea of "poetry" - notably absent from the rhythmically slack, rushed and lightweight "winning" performance - was not something on Mr Mellor's radar.

Paavo Järvi often seems more interested in stirring surfaces than plumbing depths - quite a few of his highly-praised products have initially intrigued me, but don't repay a second hearing. They have not been "keepers" in my library at least, and I have doubts whether we'll still be talking about his Sibelius performances 50 years on, as we do about his father's best discs and the Gibson and Jensen sets.

My remarks about Anna Pickard's intelligence, taste and broadcasting ability mainly relate to what she had to say about the Thielemann Schumann issue, which sounded to me the aural equivalent of Brown Windsor soup, and about Martyn Brabbins's Tippett cycle. I wasn't really listening to her comments on the Mahler, so will happily take your word for their inadequacy.

[jayne lee wilson]

I've commented at length elsewhere (Composers' subforum) on my enduring admiration for Paavo Jarvi's Nielsen Symphonies (Frankfurt RSO), and to a lesser extent his Sibelius recordings (including the fascinating if uneven recent Paris Cycle); I love his Arvo Part albums from Estonia too. He has recorded some very challenging Brahms and Bruckner. I'm afraid I've often found N-Jarvi's Nielsen, Sibelius and Martinu very routine, dull and unengaging, though I occasionally return to his much earlier Scottish Prokofiev set.

Have you heard the complete P-Jarvi Lemminkainen in better-than-lossy-sound? (the BaL excerpts were, not for the first time, misleading of the SQ). It is both poetic (a very beautiful Swan...) and detailed, doesn't sound rushed to these ears (especially if you know and love Ormandy)... and certainly not lightweight! Those brasses I mentioned have a memorably dark rich burnished impact in the In Tuonela and Homecoming pieces...the drumrolls really tell...
Do remember I hadn't encountered this Stockholm recording before, although I have a number of others here on CD, hi-res/lossless downloaded file etc....(for the rest, see above...#113)..
Deeply impressed with it.

[MickyD]

I’m glad others love this work, and have multiple choices of recordings. Sorry to be a wet blanket, but my opinion is that Swan excepted, the rest of it is pretty forgettable third rate Sibelius

Oh Richard, I'm so sorry to read that. For me, the first movement is absolutely thrilling and top notch Sibelius!

[cloughie]

I’m glad others love this work, and have multiple choices of recordings. Sorry to be a wet blanket, but my opinion is that Swan excepted, the rest of it is pretty forgettable third rate Sibelius

... and Jonny Mac would have said....
Please give it another try, playing the Swan 3rd.

[jayne lee wilson]

The stunning Toshiba-EMI CD of the stereo Ormandy is still around at a price...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Legends-24bit-Ormandy-Philadelphia/dp/B000MQ50UM/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=

The Warners-Badged one with the same original-LP picture is probably the same mastering....I hope.

But the EMI Classics Studio+ one is easy to find as well...for a few pounds less...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Four-Legends-Kalevala-Jean/dp/B000024ZOU/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1558290716&sr=1-1-spell

The Toshiba has a bolder, fuller smoother sound-for-your-pounds, with greater clarity & presence both of orchestra and acoustic; but the Classics one isn't bad at all, and you do get a fine Helsinki/Berglund Tapiola c/w....
The current Qobuz stream doesn't sound as good as the original Classics CD, seems a little thin and veiled to my ears, but at least you can take a listen...I was disappointed with this release sonically though (with the others running off CD for comparison).

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/quatre-legendes-pour-orchestre-tapiola-jean-sibelius/0094638867951

Surprised it wasn't mentioned at all....See the glowing review of this by that great Sibelian Robert Layton in the G. for 4/79.

[cloughie]

The stunning Toshiba-EMI CD of the stereo Ormandy is still around at a price...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Legends-24bit-Ormandy-Philadelphia/dp/B000MQ50UM/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=

The Warners-Badged one with the same original-LP picture is probably the same mastering....I hope.

But the EMI Classics Studio+ one is easy to find as well...for a few pounds less...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Four-Legends-Kalevala-Jean/dp/B000024ZOU/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1558290716&sr=1-1-spell

The Toshiba has a bolder, fuller smoother sound-for-your-pounds, with greater clarity & presence both of orchestra and acoustic; but the Classics one isn't bad at all, and you do get a fine Helsinki/Berglund Tapiola c/w....
The current Qobuz stream doesn't sound as good as the original Classics CD, seems a little thin and veiled to my ears, but at least you can take a listen...I was disappointed with this release sonically though (with the others running off CD for comparison).

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/quatre-legendes-pour-orchestre-tapiola-jean-sibelius/0094638867951

Surprised it wasn't mentioned at all....See the glowing review of this by that great Sibelian Robert Layton in the G. for 4/79.

The Ormandy is in my top five! But did anything before 1990 get a mention, mind you I thought that looking ahead nor was the soon to be released Oramo on Chandos. Clearly no thinking outside the box, the BBC clearly needs a Klopp!