BaL 18.05.19 - Sibelius: Lemminkäinen Suite, Op.22

[edashtav]

To partially answer The Master, I wonder whether we agree that building movements from 'endless' melodies is antithetical to the symphonic style and the obverse of the particular symphonic method that Sibelius built?

I note that you pour acid on that alkaline remark by neatly distinguishing between Sibelius's 'suite' and 'symphonic' styles. I'm rather unclear what you mean by the former: loose, relaxed, not built from scraps, simple lucid,...?

Has the Maidens lasted that well? It glowered on the Sibelian back-burner for many years and I do note that modern performances of the complete 4 Legends, whilst not as rare as hen's teeth, are infrequent. I wish to maintain that disposition whilst you, and, I admit, many on For 3, are ready for a New Deal.

I think Bryn claims that Sibelian maturity starts with En Saga. That is not a clear line in the sand, is it, since we kniow the work primarily through a revised score?

[Master Jacques]

I think Bryn claims that Sibelian maturity starts with En Saga. That is not a clear line in the sand, is it, since we know the work primarily through a revised score?

True indeed! However, I would join the group who found as much to savour in the (imperfect and less fluent) original score than in the slimline revision, once that original could be heard on disc too. Now I tend to reach for the original in preference to the revised version. All of which perhaps tells us that hunting for "maturity" can be something of a wild goose chase, when it comes to a composer as self-critical as Sibelius. If a work was worth keeping, it was often worth revising too: but earlier versions can be equally compelling.

I suppose we could happily debate the question of "symphonic style" until doomsday, though it may be a little OT for this thread! Apart of course, from reinforcing the point that the Lemminkäinen Suite is in his "suite" rather than "symphonic" style (even comparing it against the mixed long-melody/kernel development of the first two symphonies at least). Personally I would not want to constrain "symphonic style" to one or the other: what was Beethoven doing writing that huge tune in the finale of his 9th? Schmidt and Rubbra, to take two 20th c. composers at hazard, often work organically to construct symphonic movements from melodic starting points (in non-sonata, complex variation forms) rather than constructing them from shorter, kernel motifs.

It's a wide and endlessly varied field. And all good symphonists find their own way of doing it.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think Bryn claims that Sibelian maturity starts with En Saga.

What has Bryn said that makes you think he's claiming any such thing?

[edashtav]

What has Bryn said that makes you think he's claiming any such thing?

You're right, Bryn was quoting from Richardfinegold. My point remains true: En Saga isn't a single entity but a saga.

[edashtav]

Master Jacques wrote, "Personally I would not want to constrain "symphonic style" to one or the other: what was Beethoven doing writing that huge tune in the finale of his 9th?"

Well... Beethoven reached for a sledgehammer and murmured, "Take that, symphonic form."

Or... as Tom Service wrote in the Guardian,
"The Ninth Symphony is arguably the single piece that inspired the methodology of musical analysis, a discipline of forensic musicological close-reading of the score that tried to prove just how unified and coherent a conception this symphony truly is underneath its chaotically diverse surface. It’s been held up as the central work of Western classical music both by those who imagine it as the ne plus ultra of symphonic, technical, and compositional imagination and mastery, and by those who want to say that classical music can embrace the world outside the concert hall as well as within it, and that the piece is a sounding bell of social change, of emotional hope, and even of political reform."

[cloughie]

To partially answer The Master, I wonder whether we agree that building movements from 'endless' melodies is antithetical to the symphonic style and the obverse of the particular symphonic method that Sibelius built?

I note that you pour acid on that alkaline remark by neatly distinguishing between Sibelius's 'suite' and 'symphonic' styles. I'm rather unclear what you mean by the former: loose, relaxed, not built from scraps, simple lucid,...?

Has the Maidens lasted that well? It glowered on the Sibelian back-burner for many years and I do note that modern performances of the complete 4 Legends, whilst not as rare as hen's teeth, are infrequent. I wish to maintain that disposition whilst you, and, I admit, many on For 3, are ready for a New Deal.

I think Bryn claims that Sibelian maturity starts with En Saga. That is not a clear line in the sand, is it, since we kniow the work primarily through a revised score?

Correct me if I am wrong but for a long time Jensen’s recording from the early 50s was the only widely available recording, (I don't recall the early Ormandy recording been around but it may have been) and it was always called Four Leminkainen Legends, so maybe it does not need to be considered either as a suite or a symphony. However it would be foolish to deny the Suite nomenclature attached to later recordings, the first of which I recall was Kamu on DGG - very welcome as a good real stereo recording and it also wowed me with the playing and the idea firmly planted in my head that the Swan should be played third! I really do not go for the idea that this is not masterful or apprentice stuff or whatever. It is Sibelius doing what he does and his take at that time sure. Do not all composers and have not all composers do the same - their influences and ideas changing constantly. Which other composers wrote early opus masterpieces that you wish to damn with faint praises?

[Bryn]

Blimey,bryn, help! Far too recherché an observation for me. It must be 30 years since I last listened to my cassette recording of Alan Bush's Opera. The tapes survive but my cassette player, unlike Joe, has died. I recall a repeating chorus, "We Shall Not Be Moved" that may be the key to decoding your observation as it may apply to both sides of the current Sibelian argument as we/they are steeped in Siberian perma-frost.

Heh, heh, just an obsure reference to Joe Hill's leading role in the Industrial Workers of the World, know as the Wobblies, and thus to vibrato.

[edashtav]

Which other composers wrote early opus masterpieces that you wish to damn with faint praises?

Since you ask, Cloughie: BB op 8 & 16.

[vinteuil]

Since you ask, Cloughie: BB op 8 & 16.

Hunting Fathers, Young Apollo...

... or Romanian Dances, Hungarian Folk Dances?


I so wish people wd avoid abbreviations!

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[LMcD]

Hunting Fathers, Young Apollo...

... or Romanian Dances, Hungarian Folk Dances?


I so wish people wd avoid abbreviations!

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He may of course be referring to 2 early ditties by the Big Bopper … or 2 of Billy Bragg's early rants … or 2 items from Brigitte Bardot's wardrobe … or 2 discs from Brian Blessed's CD collection …

[cloughie]

The numbers could of course refer to 2 early ditties by the Big Bopper, or 2 of Billy Bragg's early rants.

Can you think of 2 Big Bopper songs?

[LMcD]

Can you think of 2 Big Bopper songs?

Chantilly Lace and White Lightning.

[vinteuil]

He may of course be referring to 2 early ditties by the Big Bopper … or 2 of Billy Bragg's early rants … or 2 items from Brigitte Bardot's wardrobe … or 2 discs from Brian Blessed's CD collection …

... no - it was obviously Bernhard Bach [1676-1749]


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[Master Jacques]

Correct me if I am wrong but for a long time Jensen’s recording from the early 50s was the only widely available recording, (I don't recall the early Ormandy recording been around but it may have been) and it was always called Four Leminkainen Legends, so maybe it does not need to be considered either as a suite or a symphony. However it would be foolish to deny the Suite nomenclature attached to later recordings, the first of which I recall was Kamu on DGG ...

I did a double take on this, as somehow I'd assumed that Kamu post-dated Gibson. But you are of course right, and Kamu pre-dates him by a year or two. What's shocking, is that the complete Kamu DG recording is not available on CD, and does not even seem to be available as a download (excepting the Return which I can see on Amazon Prime.) Doubtless somebody will put me right if that's wrong - as I hope it is - but that would account for Kamu's non-appearance on last weekend's BaL.

Meanwhile, I shall hold on to my much-played LP!

[vinteuil]

I did a double take on this, as somehow I'd assumed that Kamu post-dated Gibson. But you are of course right, and Kamu pre-dates him by a year or two. What's shocking, is that the complete Kamu DG recording is not available on CD, and does not even seem to be available as a download (excepting the Return which I can see on Amazon Prime.) Doubtless somebody will put me right if that's wrong - as I hope it is - but that would account for Kamu's non-appearance on last weekend's BaL.

Meanwhile, I shall hold on to my much-played LP!

... yours for abt £6 :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000025WYN

(more details on amazon.fr :

https://www.amazon.fr/Splendeurs-du-Nord-Edvard-Grieg/dp/B000025WYN/

[ ... with thanks to Pulcinella, who flagged this up in#105 above.]


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