BaL 6.04.19 - Mahler: Symphony no. 4 in G

[Barbirollians]

Britten wrote of "my precious Mahler 4th, which I think I have more genuine affection for than any piece in the world". He conducted a performance with the LSO in Orford Church in 1961. I only got to hear it or indeed even know about it when it came with the Vol 2 BBC Legends box in 2017. Not listed but very much still available. If I was doing the BaL I would feel inclined to at least mention it. A fine performance in which his "affection " shines through and which is certainly not just a historical curiosity.

Yes I mentioned it above it is terrific .

[gurnemanz]

Yes I mentioned it above it is terrific .

Sorry. missed.

[Barbirollians]

I believe that Mahler recorded a piano roll of a transcription of the symphony's finale (the only recording he ever made, but then recording was in its infancy during his lifetime). I have no idea whether this is available to listen to but it would surely make a fascinating and important document even considering the limitations of piano rolls. I rarely listen to Mahler these days and my only CD recording is the 2006 Haitink/ Schäfer/ Concertgebouw one. I also have the Horenstein/ Price/ LPO version on LP, which was my introduction to Mahler's music. I was not aware that it had ever been reissued on CD as the CFP catalogue seems to have completely disappeared (tobacco company sponsorship would count against it in these more health-conscious times) and is not listed on the Presto site unless it is lurking in a mega-box! I only very occasionally listen to LPs as I have only a basic turntable so it is festering in the spare bedroom. As far as I can remember this recording had mixed reviews when it was issued and I would be interested to hear others' views on it. Horenstein had a great reputation as a Mahler conductor in his day but little is heard of him now.

As I remember it I am sure I read a review in which the original recording and pressing were heavily criticised and that the performance received a much better reception when remastered and then on CD. It sounds excellent on CD to me.

[jayne lee wilson]

Maybe but there are no similar extraordinary and sudden accelerations and decelerations in Bruno Walter's 1940s Mahler 4 or in Klemperer's admittedly much later account

Everyone should listen to Mahler's own piano roll of the 4th's finale, where you'll find a very fluid, beautiful rubato employed...but one of the points about this is that it doesn't need to be interpretively fixed - he or Mengelberg could easily have played it another way, another day - just as we've come to understand about Brahms after researches (letters and comments) into performances contemporary with the composer.

As I've said before, rubato is as personal to the ear and heart of the listener as it is to the performer; for myself I love to hear a great conductor following the emotional and mood-swings of a work like Mahler 4 (cf Kna in Bruckner). But of course feelings will divide. (I find it almost impossible to listen to the later Bernstein in Mahler; it sounds to me as if Bernstein is imposing himself too much, whereas Mengelberg's 4th feels more intuitive of the music itself...).

I guess what I find most difficult is that museological "reverence for the score" approach, which, diminishing the creative role of the performer, has led to far too many inflexible, unvarying expressively rigid performances....

(It does make life easier for some conductors though, doesn't it?)

All of this throws up intriguing paradoxes about recorded music of course; do rubato-rich interpretations offer more, or give greater pleasure, in repeated hearings; or those which follow subtler or more unvarying tempi?

Or in the age of such wide availability, so many different recordings and especially of streaming, does it no longer matter?
Can streaming become a re-education in "Interpretations on Record"?

[verismissimo]

… rubato-rich interpretations offer more, or give greater pleasure, in repeated hearings; or those which follow subtler or more unvarying tempi?[/I]

Horenstein rich in rubato. He first conducted Mahler in 1922.

[Barbirollians]

That was my point , at times Mengelberg's rubato came across as wonderful and elicited that " oh yes " feeling at others it felt like a driving instructor had just hit the dashboard .

There is plenty of wonderful rubato in Walter's 1946 recording just a shame about the soprano ( which is why I tend to prefer the live account with Gueden - the 1946 record was , however, described by RO in Gramophone in 2015 as the essential record of his to buy .

[jayne lee wilson]

What a shame we don't have other 4ths from Mengelberg.....

So far I haven't tracked down any Gramophone Collection articles on the Mahler 4 in the archive; if anyone finds one do let us all know...

[BBMmk2]

What a shame we don't have other 4ths from Mengelberg.....

So far I haven't tracked down any Gramophone Collection articles on the Mahler 4 in the archive; if anyone finds one do let us all know...

I’m very surprised.

[Barbirollians]

I must have missed it - but at the end of the Shostakovich BAL I just heard those heart sinking words - "next week Nicholas Baragwanath joins me to choose a library version of Mahler 4

[Barbirollians]

That vinyl disc was my introduction, I was not aware it was subject to criticism. Always thought well of both Horenstein and Price (and a fan of Price) but I'm not an expert on his recordings. The single CD goes for a price, usually, but its also available in an anniversary box set with different performers of the symphonies - "Gustav Mahler: Complete Works [150th Anniversary] " - Warner. Listed on Am (ASIN: B003D0ZNWY) and Presto.

On a quick look a while back, Pristine seemed to be collaborating on Horenstein issues and I think his family promote such things. I have a vague memory of buying a CD of Mahler recording to player piano roll, but I can't find it at the moment (if my memory serves me right - I might be wrong!).

Deryck Cooke in Gramophone in May 1971 praised the performance highly but was very critical of the recording at the time.

The big EMI/Warner box has some interesting choices for the symphonies

1 Giulini
2 Klemperer ( studio)
3 Rattle ( I think this was probably the best of Rattle's cycle)
4 Horenstein
5 Tennstedt live 1988
6 Barbirolli
7 Rattle live
8 Tennstedt
9 Barbirolli

[Barbirollians]

Anyone know Klemperer's performance on Testament with Teresa Stich-Randall ?

Also Gramophone in 1962 included an appreciation of Bruno Walter in which John McClure of Columbia Records recounted recording projects he and Walter had planned just before his death - Schumann symphonies , Mahler 4, Bruckner 8 Brahms Requiem and Fidelio .

[vinteuil]

The big EMI/Warner box has some interesting choices for the symphonies

1 Giulini
2 Klemperer ( studio)
3 Rattle ( I think this was probably the best of Rattle's cycle)
4 Horenstein
5 Tennstedt live 1988
6 Barbirolli
7 Rattle live
8 Tennstedt
9 Barbirolli

... indeed yes. The DG/decca box which came out at about the same time opted for :

1 Kubelik/Bayerischen Rundfunks
2 Mehta/Wiener Phil:
3 Haitink/C'gebouw
4 Boulez/Cleveland
5 Bernstein/Wiener Phil:
6 Abbado/Berliner Phil:
7 Sinopoli/Philharmonia
8 Solti/Chicago
9 Karajan/Berliner Phil:
10 [Cooke] Chailly/RSO Berlin

.

[HighlandDougie]

... indeed yes. The DG/decca box which came out at about the same time opted for :

1 Kubelik/Bayerischen Rundfunks
2 Mehta/Wiener Phil:
3 Haitink/C'gebouw
4 Boulez/Cleveland
5 Bernstein/Wiener Phil:
6 Abbado/Berliner Phil:
7 Sinopoli/Philharmonia
8 Solti/Chicago
9 Karajan/Berliner Phil:
10 [Cooke] Chailly/RSO Berlin

.

And then there was, "The Mahler People's Edition" of 2010, inclusions in which (but only from the Decca/DG back catalogue) were decided on by online voting:

1 Kubelik/Bayerischen Rundfunks
2 Mehta/Wiener Phil
3 Abbado/Berliner Phil
4 Karajan/Berliner Phil
5 Bernstein/Wiener Phil
6 Bernstein/Wiener Phil
7 Abbado/Berliner Phil
8 Solti/Chicago
9 Giulini/Chicago
10 [Cooke] Chailly/RSO Berlin

which, if one participated, then brought an invitation to buy it (admittedly at a pretty low price) with one's name printed in the booklet. Ooh, La, La!

I'm also certain that we've had a, "Mahler: the Forumistas' Choice", as well - probably several times.

[Goon525]

What a shame we don't have other 4ths from Mengelberg.....

So far I haven't tracked down any Gramophone Collection articles on the Mahler 4 in the archive; if anyone finds one do let us all know...

Jayne
Have you found any sensible way of searching back copies of G for this sort of thing? Putting in Gramophone Collection just gives you every mention of either word. Adding inverted commas doesn’t help. I don’t think AND does either. I may be being dim, but it seems like a prehistoric search functionality.

[Petrushka]

I always think this symphony cries out for the Concertgebouw Orchestra.

The Concertgebouw have recorded the Mahler 4 with all of their chief conductors; they even managed to get Gatti in just in the nick of time. The orchestra clearly have a special affinity with this piece and I love the unique sound of the Mengelberg. The Concertgebouw played it under Mahler's direction twice in one evening on October 23 1904!

Needless to say, I have numerous recordings on my shelves but only acquired the celebrated Szell version last Christmas (it's in the big box). Special favourites are the VPO/Maazel/Battle, RCO/Haitink/Schäfer, VPO/Walter/Gueden an RCO/Solti/Stahlmann. I also have a NYPO/Solti from 1962 with Irmgard Seefried which is in the NYPO Mahler Radio Broadcasts set.

Would very much like to hear Lucy Crowe in the finale of the 4th as I think her voice would be ideal for it.