BaL 6.04.19 - Mahler: Symphony no. 4 in G

[jayne lee wilson]

Mildly abashed to see no further enthusiasm - well, undying passion - for the live 1939 Mengelberg. "Growing up with" the Gramophone and Radio 3 through the 70s, it felt like an essential part of your education in the performance tradition....alongside the Szell perhaps, but of course well before it and in a very contrasting interpretative style.

“….of all [Mengelberg’s] Mahler performances, this is by some distance the most important. ….a wonderful demonstration of a great orchestra playing at the peak of its powers in a live concert. It also offers an inexhaustible source of insights, particularly into the matter of the use of rubato in Mahler’s music, into a particular, and in some measure, authenticated tradition of Mahler interpretation…..

…..a performance which must of necessity be in the collection of anyone who loves this symphony in particular or Mahler’s music in general.”

No less than - Richard Osborne, Gramophone 4/86

https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-willem-mengelberg/products/pasc055

[Alison]

Mildly abashed to see no further enthusiasm - well, undying passion - for the live 1939 Mengelberg. "Growing up with" the Gramophone and Radio 3 through the 70s, it felt like an essential part of your education in the performance tradition....alongside the Szell perhaps, but of course well before it and in a very contrasting interpretative style.

“….of all [Mengelberg’s] Mahler performances, this is by some distance the most important. ….a wonderful demonstration of a great orchestra playing at the peak of its powers in a live concert. It also offers an inexhaustible source of insights, particularly into the matter of the use of rubato in Mahler’s music, into a particular, and in some measure, authenticated tradition of Mahler interpretation…..

…..a performance which must of necessity be in the collection of anyone who loves this symphony in particular or Mahler’s music in general.”

No less than - Richard Osborne, Gramophone 4/86

I managed to listen to a fair chunk online and yes it sounded wonderful.

[silvestrione]

Mildly abashed to see no further enthusiasm - well, undying passion - for the live 1939 Mengelberg. "Growing up with" the Gramophone and Radio 3 through the 70s, it felt like an essential part of your education in the performance tradition....alongside the Szell perhaps, but of course well before it and in a very contrasting interpretative style.

“….of all [Mengelberg’s] Mahler performances, this is by some distance the most important. ….a wonderful demonstration of a great orchestra playing at the peak of its powers in a live concert. It also offers an inexhaustible source of insights, particularly into the matter of the use of rubato in Mahler’s music, into a particular, and in some measure, authenticated tradition of Mahler interpretation…..

…..a performance which must of necessity be in the collection of anyone who loves this symphony in particular or Mahler’s music in general.”

No less than - Richard Osborne, Gramophone 4/86

https://www.pristineclassical.com/co...oducts/pasc055

Oh dear dear dear...took mine to Oxfam earlier in the week (along with Karajan: having a cull and decided this was my least-favourite Mahler anyway)
[The symphony, not the Mengelberg]

[Barbirollians]

I admire rather than love the Szell - the Kletzki is wonderful but a bit dated sound. I left one out a live BBC Legends conducted by Britten in Orford Church immensely bracing .

[Barbirollians]

The Mengelberg as I recall it was very Mahlerian in parts - one minute I would find myself saying “oh yes” and in others exhausted and baffled by the sudden accelerations and decelerations.

[jayne lee wilson]

Mengelberg's 1930s and 1940s Concertgebouw performances document an older tradition of playing.....
Which, for many listeners (including reviewers) today, requires a newer tradition of listening....

[Barbirollians]

Mengelberg's 1930s and 1940s Concertgebouw performances document an older tradition of playing.....
Which, for many listeners (including reviewers) today, requires a newer tradition of listening....

Maybe but there are no similar extraordinary and sudden accelerations and decelerations in Bruno Walter's 1940s Mahler 4 or in Klemperer's admittedly much later account

[cloughie]

Mengelberg's 1930s and 1940s Concertgebouw performances document an older tradition of playing.....
Which, for many listeners (including reviewers) today, requires a newer tradition of listening....

Mengelberg seems more than any other conductor confirms the marmite factor - got to say I prefer a good spread of marmite to an earful of Mengelberg!

[BBMmk2]

Mengelberg seems more than any other conductor confirms the marmite factor - got to say I prefer a good spread of marmite to an earful of Mengelberg!

What a comparison!

[gurnemanz]

Maazel and the VPO remains my library choice .

I love the Kletzki especially Emmy Loose ,the live VPO Walter with Gueden sadly deleted ,the Horenstein and Szell

I also love the 1955 Walter/Gueden. Not on Alpie's list but still available - Andromeda issue, "on offer" even, at Presto, coupled with the famous Ferrier/Patzak Lied von der Erde thrown in for good measure. (Both Gueden and Patzak have good Viennese credentials and Patzak even sings with a Wiener accent.) The earlier Seefried/Walter version (1950 - I was a baby at the time) is on Alpie's list and is also highly recommendable. Similar interpretations from Walter and I'd have to be arm-twisted to choose between Gueden and Seefried. Both live performances with some minimal audience intervention but the later Gueden recording has better sound.

[CallMePaul]

I believe that Mahler recorded a piano roll of a transcription of the symphony's finale (the only recording he ever made, but then recording was in its infancy during his lifetime). I have no idea whether this is available to listen to but it would surely make a fascinating and important document even considering the limitations of piano rolls. I rarely listen to Mahler these days and my only CD recording is the 2006 Haitink/ Schäfer/ Concertgebouw one. I also have the Horenstein/ Price/ LPO version on LP, which was my introduction to Mahler's music. I was not aware that it had ever been reissued on CD as the CFP catalogue seems to have completely disappeared (tobacco company sponsorship would count against it in these more health-conscious times) and is not listed on the Presto site unless it is lurking in a mega-box! I only very occasionally listen to LPs as I have only a basic turntable so it is festering in the spare bedroom. As far as I can remember this recording had mixed reviews when it was issued and I would be interested to hear others' views on it. Horenstein had a great reputation as a Mahler conductor in his day but little is heard of him now.

[Cockney Sparrow]

The Andromeda version is available on Naxos Music Library, with a PDF (which gives dates, remastering and performers details but not much else).
( Cat No. ANDRCD5041. http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?7506-Online-Naxos-music-library/page3 )

[Cockney Sparrow]

I believe that Mahler recorded a piano roll of a transcription of the symphony's finale (the only recording he ever made, but then recording was in its infancy during his lifetime). I have no idea whether this is available to listen to but it would surely make a fascinating and important document even considering the limitations of piano rolls. I rarely listen to Mahler these days and my only CD recording is the 2006 Haitink/ Schäfer/ Concertgebouw one. I also have the Horenstein/ Price/ LPO version on LP, which was my introduction to Mahler's music. I was not aware that it had ever been reissued on CD as the CFP catalogue seems to have completely disappeared (tobacco company sponsorship would count against it in these more health-conscious times) and is not listed on the Presto site unless it is lurking in a mega-box! Horenstein had a great reputation as a Mahler conductor in his day but little is heard of him now.

That vinyl disc was my introduction, I was not aware it was subject to criticism. Always thought well of both Horenstein and Price (and a fan of Price) but I'm not an expert on his recordings. The single CD goes for a price, usually, but its also available in an anniversary box set with different performers of the symphonies - "Gustav Mahler: Complete Works [150th Anniversary] " - Warner. Listed on Am (ASIN: B003D0ZNWY) and Presto.

On a quick look a while back, Pristine seemed to be collaborating on Horenstein issues and I think his family promote such things. I have a vague memory of buying a CD of Mahler recording to player piano roll, but I can't find it at the moment (if my memory serves me right - I might be wrong!).

[gurnemanz]

Britten wrote of "my precious Mahler 4th, which I think I have more genuine affection for than any piece in the world". He conducted a performance with the LSO in Orford Church in 1961. I only got to hear it or indeed even know about it when it came with the Vol 2 BBC Legends box in 2017. Not listed but very much still available. If I was doing the BaL I would feel inclined to at least mention it. A fine performance in which his "affection " shines through and which is certainly not just a historical curiosity.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I believe that Mahler recorded a piano roll of a transcription of the symphony's finale (the only recording he ever made, but then recording was in its infancy during his lifetime). I have no idea whether this is available to listen to but it would surely make a fascinating and important document even considering the limitations of piano rolls.

Mahler recorded four selections from his works for piano roll, CMP - the finale of the fourth, the first movement of the fifth, and a couple of Kareoke songs (including the "Gung heut morgen" which he reused in the first movement of the First Symphony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PScJkkQPwwE

The sound of the Piano rolls is astonishingly good (I have an earlier TELDEC CD release) - much, much better than the sound from shellac discs or wax cylinders. The Welte-Mignon company recorded many composers in the first decade of the 20th Century - Strauss playing Salome's Dance, the Love Scene from Heldenleben; Grieg, Saint-Saens, Humperdinck, d'Albert, Leoncavallo, and ... errr ... Kienzl (of whom I'd never otherwise .... )