BaL 16.03.19 - Brahms: Piano Concerto no. 2 in B flat

[Mal]

Zimerman/Bernstein is on Amazon Unlimited, and listening to it I have grave doubts, mostly for the reasons Ivan March, lead author of the Penguin guide, expresses in his Gramophone review:

"Bernstein's opening tempo is a leisurely Andante and the pace almost slows to Adagio before a burst of energy from the pianist signals that the performance is going to spring to life with the orchestral re-statement of the main theme. Throughout the movement there is this constant flexing between a rather indulgent lyricism and a passionate forward thrust... If only they had not been so determined to stamp their interpretative mark on the proceedings this would have been a magnificent performance... [In] the finale ... the music nearly halts at one point and Brahms's grazioso feeling is often overwhelmed.... Far better to get ... the splendid Gilels/Jochum ... that you could take to a Desert Island with confidence."

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/brahms-piano-concerto-no2-1

Certainly listening to this right after Serkin/Szell I miss the wonderful forward momentum generated by Cleveland's magical machine.

OK there are several plus points: the beautiful VPO strings & horns, moments of genuine grandeur and poetry, but I can't see this as a library choice, unless you have several copies already and are looking for the special moments. I think anyone coming to this work for he first time is likely get frustrated with the stop-go nature & mannerisms that Bernstein & Zimerman introduce.

So I'll be sticking with Serkin/Szell, and perhaps supplementing with the warmer, more lyrical, if tamer, Gilels/Jochum

[jayne lee wilson]

actually the concerto first movement is a mess. Ive always hated it. Incoherent and rather a frustrating piece.

It is in fact an extended and very innovative concerto-sonata-form with a multiplicity of short motifs and thematic ideas. The brief idea that the development initially focusses on was picked up by Martinu in his 3rd Concerto, itself a sort-of Homage à the Brahms B Flat...... perhaps you would like to be more specific in your lofty dismissal? (I dunno, after that Beethoven 8 thread, there seems to a fashion for lèse-majesté creeping in around here...).

One of Brahms' greatest creations. But given the structural fluidity and deep integration of its material, it's perhaps unsurprising if some listeners get a bit lost.

Anyway, I'll listen to the this BaL later (football permitting, but the rain is keeping me out of the garden, so......)...
Glad to hear that Buchbinder/Harnoncourt found favour...it's with No.1 in the set I have, I played it a few months ago, very impressed by it but I'd forgotten about it since...(pressures IRL etc...).
Surprised at that final choice, but I'll need to hear the whole commentary....surely Richter featured positively somewhere (ah, but which...?!)...

No Historical Choices mentioned i.e Horowitz...?

[pastoralguy]

I always try to remember that, at the end of the day, it's simply one person's opinion that we are free to embrace or reject as we feel. As I've got older, I've learned that it's ok to disagree with the 'experts' about a multitude of subjects, not least Br***t!

[edashtav]

Jayne wondered No Historical Choices mentioned i.e. Horowitz...?
Arthur Schnabel's compelling phrasing got an honourable mention, Jayne.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It is in fact an extended and very innovative concerto-sonata-form with a multiplicity of short motifs and thematic ideas. The brief idea that the development initially focusses on was picked up by Martinu in his 3rd Concerto, itself a sort-of Homage à the Brahms B Flat...... perhaps you would like to be more specific in your lofty dismissal? (I dunno, after that Beethoven 8 thread, there seems to a fashion for lèse-majesté creeping in around here...).

One of Brahms' greatest creations. But given the structural fluidity and deep integration of its material, it's perhaps unsurprising if some listeners get a bit lost.

Anyway, I'll listen to the this BaL later (football permitting, but the rain is keeping me out of the garden, so......)...
Glad to hear that Buchbinder/Harnoncourt found favour...it's with No.1 in the set I have, I played it a few months ago, very impressed by it but I'd forgotten about it since...(pressures IRL etc...).
Surprised at that final choice, but I'll need to hear the whole commentary....surely Richter featured positively somewhere (ah, but which...?!)...

No Historical Choices mentioned i.e Horowitz...?

Thanks very much for restoring some balance . It is of course a wonderful piece unless you share the fashionable dislike for Brahms. I wonder if like the 1st it's more of a symphony as the piano is so much with the orchestra and embedded in the overall texture. Even the opening - echoing the French horn - a pianistic challenge if ever there was one .
As TS said it's unbelievably difficult but without the showiness of Rach 3 for example. No wonder it is so rarely performed and so many greats have not recorded it. Any work that has been recorded half a dozen times by both Richter and Rubenstein cannot be lightly dismissed as incoherent. If anything it's sometimes almost over- coherent in that Brahmsian way of sometimes academically over -working the material .
But so many masterful touches e.g as TS isolated the extraordinary preparation for the recapitulation with that wonderful A maj (d minor ? ) to B Flat modulation through A min then with an added minor sixth then flattening the fifth to end with the dominant of B flat - one of the bits I can get my fingers round ...

[gurnemanz]

Jayne wondered No Historical Choices mentioned i.e. Horowitz...?
Arthur Schnabel's compelling phrasing got an honourable mention, Jayne.

... and Schnabel is listed as a recommended recording on the website, along with Rubinstein/Krips dating from 1958. Early stereo but might also be categorised as historical.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Fischer/Furtwangler was mentioned with an excerpt.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - both Schnabel and Fischer were well-spoken of and received illustrations; and right at the end TS gave a favourable passing mention of Myra Hess, but didn't give any excerpt and hadn't (AFAICR) previously mentioned her.

[edashtav]

Yes - both Schnabel and Fischer were well-spoken of and received illustrations; and right at the end TS gave a favourable passing mention of Myra Hess, but didn't give any escerpt and hadn't (AFAICR) previously mentioned her.

Curiously, the Wisdom of Solomon was missed.

[Barbirollians]

I found your comment helpful, Barbirollians. My finger was poised to order the Zimerman but I needed reassurance because I find Bernstein'sc hyper emotionalism irritating. I need a CD for I've heard this concerto live more frequently than any other, I posses a miniature score, I love the piece but I own neither an LP nor a CD. "Rather indulgent" brought me up short , so I've selected you 'penny plain' alternative

Saints above I would much prefer numerous recordings dismissed by Service to the Buchbinder .

Solomon dismissed for not playing all the notes , as far as I recall the superb Fleisher and Richter accounts entirely ignored , Gilels and Jochum traduced in a manner that suggests he is entirely tin eared in this piece . Arrau, Brendel,Anda also wholly passed over .

The Zimerman is a gorgeous performance but rather rich for a BAL , Rubinstein /Krips is very fine but two historical stunners Rubinstein/Coates and Horowitz/Toscanini also ignored .

[Barbirollians]

I did agree with his criticism of Barenboim with Dudamel but thought it rather unfair he did not play an excerpt of the very fine account with Barbirolli

[Goon525]

Thanks to Qobuz, I listened to the 'winner' this afternoon. Before giving my own impressions, can I just point out that the late Ivan March was probably the worst reviewer ever on the Gramophone team - and I read every issue to which he contributed. Hopelessly superficial. Anyway, I can be allergic to Lenny too, but I thought his conducting was restrained and sensible, yet dynamic, on this occasion. The orchestra played, and were recorded, superbly - one really hears the quality of the Vienna strings. My one area of reservation was the recording of the piano, very forward, almost in its own acoustic, but more worryingly with a rather coarse hollow quality at or above ff. It's decades since I heard Zimerman live, but I don’t recall that being a characteristic of his playing. I wouldn’t want to put anyone off listening to this generally excellent version, but it isn’t perfect.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The orchestra played, and were recorded, superbly - one really hears the quality of the Vienna strings. My one area of reservation was the recording of the piano, very forward, almost in its own acoustic, but more worryingly with a rather coarse hollow quality at or above ff..

DG's digital recordings in the 1980s were often quite nasty, though the Bernstein Vienna recordings fared better. I like Lenny's Brahms and Schumann symphonies with the VPO.

[Maclintick]

as far as I recall the superb Fleisher and Richter accounts entirely ignored , Gilels and Jochum traduced in a manner that suggests he is entirely tin eared in this piece . Arrau, Brendel,Anda also wholly passed over

I enjoyed the BAL & have no problem with TS's hyper-subjective viewpoint as long as there's no pretence that it's definitive. I think he made this clear (?) but, as one who grew up with Backhaus/VPO/Böhm & Gilels/BPO/Jochum, I tend to view TS's dismissals of these with more than a little scepticism, and his omission of Richter, Arrau, Brendel etc as lacunae which should properly be addressed in a longer format -- some have suggested a modern reincarnation of "Interpretations on Record" . Pending such an unlikely resurrection, we have our own discussion on these boards, for which I am incredibly grateful.

Just downloaded Richter/CSO/Leinsdorf, & among contemporary performers, I've really enjoyed hearing Yefim Bronfman live in this concerto, so will investigate his 2 recordings.

[edashtav]

I enjoyed the BAL & have no problem with TS's hyper-subjective viewpoint as long as there's no pretence that it's definitive. I think he made this clear (?) but, as one who grew up with Backhaus/VPO/Böhm & Gilels/BPO/Jochum, I tend to view TS's dismissals of these with more than a little scepticism, and his omission of Richter, Arrau, Brendel etc as lacunae which should properly be addressed in a longer format -- some have suggested a modern reincarnation of "Interpretations on Record" . Pending such an unlikely resurrection, we have our own discussion on these boards, for which I am incredibly grateful.

Just downloaded Richter/CSO/Leinsdorf, & among contemporary performers, I've really enjoyed hearing Yefim Bronfman live in this concerto, so will investigate his 2 recordings.

Pending such an unlikely resurrection, we have our own discussion on these boards, for which I am incredibly grateful.
Well said!