BaL 16.03.19 - Brahms: Piano Concerto no. 2 in B flat

[jayne lee wilson]

Wolfgang Manz/“George Enescu" Bucharest PO/Mandeal. Arte Nova CD.

Put off, inter alia, by the forward piano and the tutti-grandiosity of orchestral approach on the Zimerman/Bernstein (despite its other self-evident expressive qualities), I’m afraid I didn’t get far with it.
So I wondered how my off-piste pet favourite (unsurprisingly unmentioned in the BaL) would hold up….so to Manz/Mandeal. The answer is, very well indeed! Under 16’ for the 1st movement, it may not have quite the leonine blaze or stunningly wide-ranging rubato of Horowitz/Toscanini but my word - it’s pretty damn close. Hidden treasure. (Possibly to me what Berezovsky is to TS).

So (i) is - fast clean and crisp, almost neo-classical in phrasing and rhythm. The band isn’t sumptuous, but keen, warm-toned, sharp into the attack. The initial allegro is no-nonsense brisk, but the emotional temperature rises palpably as the movement progresses. This sets the tone for the whole performance in a single breath of musical energy; just perhaps, not for you if you like to dwell longingly in the more evocative episodes. (Zimerman, or for me, the lovely, beautifully-recorded Hough/Wigglesworth for that…). But those Handelian bells still ring out splendidly, and after the very-appassionato you just go “yeah!” Air truly punched.
Nothing is overwrought or too grand here, the andante tender, light, delicate…lovely cello solo… but how true it seems to Brahms’ unique balance of baroque, classical and Romantic, music and passion. Finale zips along, remembers to dance, sing and - just as important - play. Nothing fun-starved about this one.
(BTW Tom - Wolfgang Manz plays all the notes…no, I won’t say it…)

Recorded sound is unspectacularly fine on the original white-fronted Arte Nova - orchestra just a shade recessed (carp carp) in a mid-hall balance with wind detail blended but clear; piano not too forward and well-balanced.
So still a huge favourite : my kind of Brahms - top group material!

No-one with an aptly adaptable ear should be disappointed with this, so - Seek out a cheap CD or download - they are around….

(need to hear Buchbinder, a forgotten favourite of mine, again - but will try to seek out a Richter or two later....has anyone here ever compared the readings with Leinsdorf, Maazel, Mravinsky etc..?)

[Pianoman]

Your persistent advocacy of the 1948 Horowitz has paid off with me - I’m normally averse to old hissy mono recordings but found myself unable to turn off the first movement that Pristine has on the site. I do have the Furtwangler Tristan and Bruckner 8 from Pristine in their ‘ambient stereo’ incarnations and am very impressed. I presume that’s the best to go for with the Brahms ?
Regarding modern versions my go tos are Hough/ Wigglesworth and the recent Joseph Moog on Onyx (not on the list) which is crisp, clean, fleet, in fact the way I’m beginning to prefer my Brahms...

[jayne lee wilson]

Your persistent advocacy of the 1948 Horowitz has paid off with me - I’m normally averse to old hissy mono recordings but found myself unable to turn off the first movement that Pristine has on the site. I do have the Furtwangler Tristan and Bruckner 8 from Pristine in their ‘ambient stereo’ incarnations and am very impressed. I presume that’s the best to go for with the Brahms ?
Regarding modern versions my go tos are Hough/ Wigglesworth and the recent Joseph Moog on Onyx (not on the list) which is crisp, clean, fleet, in fact the way I’m beginning to prefer my Brahms...

Ages since I bought from Pristine, but at one time I bought a great deal and my priority tended to be: 24-bit if available; Ambient Stereo; 16-bit stereo.... etc. Some seem to take against ambient transfers from various sites, but Andrew Rose's are nearly always done subtly, with a very good ear. Pristine's notes on the transfers and their sources evince their careful, knowledgable approach.
I don't think Pristine ever got their 16-bit streaming going.... did they? Must check...

Ivan March? Fond memories of Collectors' Corner... all those Double Deccas and Philips Duos!

[cloughie]

Ages since I bought from Pristine, but at one time I bought a great deal and my priority tended to be: 24-bit if available; Ambient Stereo; 16-bit stereo.... etc. Some seem to take against ambient transfers from various sites, but Andrew Rose's are nearly always done subtly, with a very good ear. Pristine's notes on the transfers and their sources evince their careful, knowledgable approach.
I don't think Pristine ever got their 16-bit streaming going.... did they? Must check...

Ivan March? Fond memories of Collectors' Corner... all those Double Deccas and Philips Duos!

Probably because we have memories of Eclipse and other 'Electronic stereo' issues, way back - interesting that when transferring recordings to CD, Decca wisely decided to settle for tidied up Mono rather than repeating the error of going artificial!

[silvestrione]

I did agree with his criticism of Barenboim with Dudamel but thought it rather unfair he did not play an excerpt of the very fine account with Barbirolli

Absolutely, especially as Barenboim plays that very same passage terrifically in the earlier Barbirolli (with the sforzatos in place, as also in the Schnabel, but not, surprisingly, Pollini, who is usually so careful to follow the markings in the score: he just goes for the whole thing, that passage, hell-for-leather).

[richardfinegold]

Your persistent advocacy of the 1948 Horowitz has paid off with me - I’m normally averse to old hissy mono recordings but found myself unable to turn off the first movement that Pristine has on the site. I do have the Furtwangler Tristan and Bruckner 8 from Pristine in their ‘ambient stereo’ incarnations and am very impressed. I presume that’s the best to go for with the Brahms ?
Regarding modern versions my go tos are Hough/ Wigglesworth and the recent Joseph Moog on Onyx (not on the list) which is crisp, clean, fleet, in fact the way I’m beginning to prefer my Brahms...

I had bought Horowitz earlier as result of Jlw advocacy...her description as “leonine is spot on...

[richardfinegold]

I'm amazed that this performance doesn't get more mentions (and none at all during this BAL). I love it (as referred to above).

Enduring the surges of smug verbosity (or so it seems to me), I tried to focus on what TS was saying rather than how he was saying it - and some of it was interesting... as were a lot of the extracts played. I probably will give the 'winner' a listen on Qobuz (though I've never 'got' Zimerman's way with music, for some strange reason). Shame he just dismissed the Gilels/Jochum without analysis - because I've never liked it and have never been able to work out why. What was it TS said: the accompaniment was 'dour' or something? It kind of rang a bell - I remember thinking that the 'minor key' grit that makes the performance of the 1st concerto in the same box so tremendous seemed to carry over into the 2nd and just didn't deliver the music at all as I hear it.

I must say I liked the 'different' sound of the opening extract, from the Moravec / Bělohlávek performance. Pity it got no further airing or reference. I think I'll investigate that one, for a fresh view of this amazing piece.

I’ve listened to Zimmerman/Bernstein now via Qobuz on 3 different systems, including my car. There is something unnatural about the Piano vs. Orchestra that I just can’t get past. On my “ruthlessly revealing “ main setup it sounds positively ugly, as per my previous post....it is more listenable on the other two more forgiving systems but it still sounds like the Piano is somewhere in the front rows and suspended a few feet above the Conductor...I’m not the only person here to note that and I can only shake my head at the choice when it is so odd sounding.
Regarding Cali comment about Zimmerman, I know just what he means. I heard him in recital here once (Chicago has a large Polish population and the wife and I were definitely in the non Polska minority) and I’ve never heard Chopin be so rubato-ized to death. I wanted to leave early but of course we didn’t. His stage manner is also irritating: he came off like a Midevil Polish Nobility that would deign to let the Peasant riff raff kiss his feet, but that shouldn’t matter on an Audio only recording. So I was predisposed to hate the performance (and the thought of late Bernstein aiding and abetting KZ in torturing Brahms didn’t help). And while there are plenty of quirky interpretive choices here, I was surprised that purely as a performance, I found myself enjoying it,enough to sit through 3 listens in 24 hours (did I mention that this one of my absolute favorite pieces?). Enough, though; I feel like cleansing my ears with Fleisher and Szell, and a realistic sonic perspective as well.

[Nick Armstrong]

Polish Nobility that would deign to let the Peasant riff raff kiss his feet

... no view on your local band with Messrs Richter & Leinsdorf?

[Pianorak]

I have a DG VHS tape of the Zimerman/LB Brahms 1 & 2. Would that be the same audio as on the CD (which I haven't got)?

[Bryn]

I have a DG VHS tape of the Zimerman/LB Brahms 1 & 2. Would that be the same audio as on the CD (which I haven't got)?

See messages #87 and #105

[Goon525]

What's your evidence for March being a bad reviewer? Note he's not just one of the Gramophone horde, he's lead reviewer (of three), and sole editor, for the Penguin guide. Several reviews in the Penguin guide don't match my experience, but many do, and I don't find it a superficial guide.

Zimerman/Bernstein actually doesn't even appear in the lengthy lists in the Penguin guides 1999/2010. Note, I happen to agree with March, on this occasion, which is why I quoted his review - which highlighted the problems better than I ever could. Instead of making an ad hominem attack on March, why not stick to just arguing against his review? You may have found Bernstein's conducting restrained and sensible, but March didn't, and I didn't. Given the highly subjective nature of music appreciation can't we just agree to differ instead of launching ad hominem attacks? I'd just suggest, before purchase, that prospective CD purchasers stream most of the first movement to see if Lenny's restrained enough, for them, this time.

I can see I need to try and justify my comments about March. Like Mac (probably) I bought every Penguin Guide, and I read every word he write in Gramophone. March was basically the chief administrator of the Penguin, and would write reviews of the discs that EG and RL didn't fancy - on the whole, music on the lighter side. He had considerable knowledge of the recording industry, and there's no doubt, Jayne, he could churn out competent reissue reviews (eg Collectors Corner) where he was largely producing rewrites of the original reviews by more expert reviewers. But he was the ultimate jack-of-all-trades, master of none. I remember one of the last reviews he did for Gramophone, where for some reason (I think that DJF, the natural reviewer had written the booklet notes, but still...) they let him loose on a Shostakovich String Quartet issue by the Pacifica Quartet. It was quite clear that he'd never listened to the quartets before, had no basis of comparison and the published review was an embarrassment to Gramophone, a point I made to the Editor, and fortunately there wasn't much more IM. Gramophone has a very fine reviewing team at the moment, and that's partly because they are experts in their field - IM might have been a nice guy, but he wasn't an expert in any field.

Incidentally, like many others here I'm sure, I used to assume the Penguin Guides were a bible and could be relied on. As it happens, EG once admitted to a friend of mine that he didn't listen to the whole of all of the recordings he 'reviewed' - just the 'crucial moments'. Maybe that's not surprising, given the quantity of reviewing required for Penguin plus Gramophone plus Guardian. But I'm afraid it leaves me thinking that RL was the only heavyweight on the Penguin team, and the only one whose reviews one should trust. (Incidentally, EG's autobiography is like a parody of 'Diary of a Nobody'.)

Finally, Mac seems upset by my 'ad hominem' attack on IM. But he was a reviewer, and surely reviewers set themselves up to be criticised? Although I'm sure no one here would utter a word against Tom Service...

[Barbirollians]

I regret I tend to agree in later years that Ivan March's reviews were not very reliable - I remember a rave review of Zuill Bailey's Dvorak CC recording which I thought was pretty dreary and grainy when I heard it.

Like Jayne however I bought a lot of cassettes and CDs due to Collectors Corner and Cassette Commentary and the vast majority were very sound recommendations for which I am grateful.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Re Ivan March - I thought he was okay, but wondered whether his hearing had deteriorated when he constantly praised the quality of musicasettes.

[Barbirollians]

I have listened again to Solomon's 1947 - previous winner of BAL tonight and am reminded what a wonderful performance it is - 16 minutes for a propulsive opening allegro , opening with Dennis Brain on the horn ( amazed TS resisted playing that marvellous start to the recording) and a surging dramatic accompaniment from Philharmonia and Dobrowen .

[jayne lee wilson]

The Ivan March DSCH/Weinberg review Goon refers to is in 8/2013. Yes, the 11th Quartet is oddly misdescribed, but it was the editor's job to correct that and the review is otherwise unexceptional reportage. (It seems shame to highlight such an error in an octogenarian though, especially one who has given musiclovers so much)...

So let's not forget that Ivan March founded the pioneering Long Playing Record Library in Liverpool (later the Squires Gate Music Centre) in the 1954, giving many listeners a chance to hear a much wider range of recordings than they would have had access to otherwise, just as my local library offered me in the 1970s when I could afford very few LPs. That's enriched quite a few lives!

The 1958 321-page published guide to the Squires Gate collection was the forerunner of the Stereo Record Guide - the very thing I used to navigate through what seemed a vast and bewildering catalogue of the LPs before me. I simply wouldn't be here if that hadn't existed back then....

Surely the point is they did it. March-Greenfield-Layton - took on that seemingly-impossible inevitably-imperfect project. We owe them, and Ivan March, so much.
(Anyway, half the fun was discovering that you disagreed with them sometimes!)