BaL 9.02.19 - Beethoven: Piano Concerto no 5 in E flat "Emperor"

[visualnickmos]

I don’t think we are comparing like with like - that is not meeting up with a dear friend you have not seen for a while it is meeting up with a former friend who you have lost touch with.

That's sort of what I meant; by "old friend" I was referring to a much-loved friend of long-standing - even though one knows them well, one never tires of their company

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Make the most of this BaL. There doesn't appear to be one on the Saturday that follows, owing to the programme being cut by an hour because of the Berlioz 150 commemoration.

If that isn't bad enough, the "replacement" is performed by the BBC S*****s.

[Bryn]

I recall a BBC programme way back in the 80's called 'The Emperor's New Clothes', with Roger Norrington directing a period orchestra (London Classical Players?) and Kenneth Van Barthold playing an early piano in this concerto. It would be fascinating to see it again.

Oh dear. Memories playing tricks. It turns out we (you and I) discussed this programme, briefly, around a year ago, but at that time it had not been posted on YouTube. Anyway, in following up the rediscovery, I ordered a used copy of Kenneth Van Barthold and David Buckton's BBC published 1975 book, "The Story of the Piano", via amazon.co.uk. £5.77 well spent, I reckon. It's only has 116 pages but is well presented, with fine illustrations of both a range of instruments and their mechanisms. There are probably more thorough tomes on the subject printed more recently, but this one is well worth considering as an introduction.

[MickyD]

Oh dear. Memories playing tricks. It turns out we (you and I) discussed this programme, briefly, around a year ago, but at that time it had not been posted on YouTube. Anyway, in following up the rediscovery, I ordered a used copy of Kenneth Van Barthold and David Buckton's BBC published 1975 book, "The Story of the Piano", via amazon.co.uk. £5.77 well spent, I reckon. It's only has 116 pages but is well presented, with fine illustrations of both a range of instruments and their mechanisms. There are probably more thorough tomes on the subject printed more recently, but this one is well worth considering as an introduction.

Yes, I had a feeling we had discussed it before, Bryn! But good that the subject was aired again, as thanks to your research, it yielded precious fruit!

I have a similar book about the early piano produced in the 80's, representing the Colt Collection - does this collection still exist, I wonder? Looks like it can still be had for about £8 - well worth having, as each instrument (covering a wide range of years) is illustrated with a colour photo. Snap it up quick!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Early-Piano-C-F-Colt/dp/0852495722/ref=sr_1_21?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1549519930&sr=1-21&keywords=The+Early+Piano

[Bryn]

Yes, I had a feeling we had discussed it before, Bryn! But good that the subject was aired again, as thanks to your research, it yielded precious fruit!

I have a similar book about the early piano produced in the 80's, representing the Colt Collection - does this collection still exist, I wonder? Looks like it can still be had for about £8 - well worth having, as each instrument (covering a wide range of years) is illustrated with a colour photo. Snap it up quick!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Early-Piano...he+Early+Piano

Thanks for that. I have just ordered a "Used: Very Good" copy for £12 (including p&p), (only 64p more than the cheapest ex-library copy). The Colt collection is referred to in "The Story of the Piano".

[Mal]

This thread has gone off topic! What's your benchmark for "the Emperor"? This is mine:

[Bryn]

This thread has gone off topic! What's your benchmark for "the Emperor"? This is mine:

Back before The Emperor's New Clothes that was one I particularly favoured, though Kovacevich's later recording with the Australian Chamber Orchestra came to be preferred by me. These days the Tan/LCP/Norrington is the one I most favour for tempi, and the Schoonderwoerd/Cristofori best suits me in all other respects. If it has to be modern beefed up instruments, then Brautigam/NSO/Parrott is my 'go to'.

[Mal]

I listened to Perahia/Haitink yesterday and found it lacking in largeness of vision and purpose compared to Kovacevich/Davis; it's going to the charity shop... I listened to a few minutes of the HIP performances you mention on utube, but I still much prefer a modern piano and orchestra in Beethoven, using instruments that can get closer to Beethoven's largeness of vision, rather than keeping him confined to the limitations of the instruments he had to put up with.

[Bryn]

I listened to Perahia/Haitink yesterday and found it lacking in largeness of vision and purpose compared to Kovacevich/Davis; it's going to the charity shop... I listened to a few minutes of the HIP performances you mention on utube, but I still much prefer a modern piano and orchestra in Beethoven, using instruments that can get closer to Beethoven's largeness of vision, rather than keeping him confined to the limitations of the instruments he had to put up with.

Hmm. Beethoven was notoriously picky about the question of tempi. As Ferdie Ries stressed, Beethoven got particularly angry when things were played slower than he indicated. He was also very much familiar with the properties of the keyboard instruments of his time and the variation of tone between registers, etc. Presented with a modern iron-framed, even timbred Steinway, he would undoubtedly have written for that, not the instruments he did know and write for.

[Bryn]

Yes, I had a feeling we had discussed it before, Bryn! But good that the subject was aired again, as thanks to your research, it yielded precious fruit!

I have a similar book about the early piano produced in the 80's, representing the Colt Collection - does this collection still exist, I wonder? Looks like it can still be had for about £8 - well worth having, as each instrument (covering a wide range of years) is illustrated with a colour photo. Snap it up quick!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Early-Piano...he+Early+Piano

The Story of the Piano "grew out of a television programme - 'How did it sound to Beethoven - the story of piano sound through 250 years'". To my delight, that programme too is on YouTube:

[MickyD]

Fantastic work, Bryn! Thanks so much for this, I don't remember ever seeing it before.

[Bryn]

Fantastic work, Bryn! Thanks so much for this, I don't remember ever seeing it before.

Nor I. This has been a very productive thread, what?

[MickyD]

Indeed it has. I have some very old BBC recordings (from VHS to DVD) of Hogwood/AAM - if only I knew how to upload them onto YouTube. I need a Bryn in the house to do it for me!

[Bryn]

Indeed it has. I have some very old BBC recordings (from VHS to DVD) of Hogwood/AAM - if only I knew how to upload them onto YouTube. I need a Bryn in the house to do it for me!

Sorry, the nearest I have ever got to uploading anything to YouTube was providing the audio for someone else's video of their performance at a Borough New Music lunchtime concert. I really ought to learn how to carry out such uploads myself. By the way, it's worth searching YouTube for Kenneth van Barthold. There's a programme on Scriabin, too.

[Barbirollians]

Hmm. Beethoven was notoriously picky about the question of tempi. As Ferdie Ries stressed, Beethoven got particularly angry when things were played slower than he indicated. He was also very much familiar with the properties of the keyboard instruments of his time and the variation of tone between registers, etc. Presented with a modern iron-framed, even timbred Steinway, he would undoubtedly have written for that, not the instruments he did know and write for.

Then again presented with one he might have Ben thrilled to play what he had written for those earlier pianos on it instead .