BaL 9.02.19 - Beethoven: Piano Concerto no 5 in E flat "Emperor"

[richardfinegold]

Speaking of Barenboim and the Emperor, I played of the Blu Ray of him playing/conducting his Berlin Orchestra yesterday.
This is a well recorded and very satisfying performance, a few moments of imprecision that seem to result from the Orchestra waiting to be Qued by the Soloist being the only real blemish. The video leaves something to be desired, constantly moving panoramically around the hall and with far to many close ups of the hard working, profusely sweating DB (and I can’t disable the video without reprogramming my remote) but the one Blu Ray of all 5 Concertos is a bargain with really excellent playing and the multichannel does a good job of reproducing Hall ambience

[Bryn]

I recall a BBC programme way back in the 80's called 'The Emperor's New Clothes', with Roger Norrington directing a period orchestra (London Classical Players?) and Kenneth Van Barthold playing an early piano in this concerto. It would be fascinating to see it again.

Thank you so much for naming the pianist. At last, I have been able to track down that misremembered programme I referred to earlier.

See 20:00hrs, here: https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/schedule...and/1981-06-17

I just wish I could see/hear it again.

Hurray!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But who are
the Holy Hippites who persist?

I think we should be told....

It's an attitude that can be observed by reading certain earlier posts (by persons who often write extremely illuminating posts). But I'm an unholy host, so I mustn't get into the name-blame-game.

[BBMmk2]

I know. It's as if they think anything pre-HIPP (or whatever it's called) is not worth visiting. There is room for both in this world.

Absolutely. I don’t, quite like those versions! The HIPP ones.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have a nasty feeling some horrible, etiolated HIP performance will win this time!

... it’s a pity the hippites persist with their holier-than-thou attitude to their personal preferences,

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's an attitude that can be observed by reading certain earlier posts (by persons who often write extremely illuminating posts).

Hmmm. Do you mean "earlier posts" on this Thread, Alpie? Looking at posts which mention HIPP recordings (excluding those in your OPs)

Bryn #8 (having previously mentioned Gieseking, and later going on to enthuse about Gould & Stokowski) pointed out that there were no recordings (that he knew of) that attempted to reproduce the alla breve marking in the original orchestral parts.
Verismissmo #20 listed the few available HIPP recordings and requested recommendations.
vinty #21 gave an additional recording, then his own preference as requested by Verismissimo. vinty suggested that "Unreconstructed fans of well-upholstered big-band Beethoven will not like it at all...", perhaps a little prejudiced, but an opinion more confirmed by anti-HIPP comments from Conchis, and (if I've understood his #79 correctly) Bbm. (And later vinty posted his enjoyment of Stokie/Gould)
gurnemanz #33, suggested that he might get a recommended HIPP recording to go alongside his current collection of "Big Band" recordings.
Tony #38, added another HIPP recording to verismissimo's list, and in #62 (not that much "earlier" than your own #78) expressed the hope that Kenyon would choose two versions - making clear his own preference, but in terms I took to seek to balance Conchis' holier-than-thou comment in #60.

So, I'm still rather at a loss as to which "persistent" Forumistas you refer, Alpie - at the very least, on this Thread, the discussion has been quite well balanced.

[jayne lee wilson]

I feel the same - not only about this recording, but many, many...... one never tires of time spent with old friends.

But you can't do much about it when it happens can you? Once a piece is over for you - when it's gone, it's gone. True for me of Dvorak 9, Le Sacre, and sadly, it seems quite a few Mahler Symphonies as well. Paradoxically, some of them come back if you play them a few times in unfamiliar recordings (I had this experience with Nielsen recently) but some are over for ever. Happens to conductors too of course. Remember Karajan on the Mahler 9?

I looked up an old friend after about 20 years. Classic working-class-boy-made-good, from the Council Estate to the Cityboy stockbroker, then Private Equity with his own International Finance Boutique.
It backfired on me badly....
Dismayingly rightwing, his sympathies with UKIP, Le Pen, US Republicans (before Brexit or Trump actually happened ...) scornfully dismissive of opposing ideas....we were once very close (Arts-Students "growing up together intellectually"), but despite friendly initial meetings, the correspondence ended very sourly...

Dread to think of the musical equivalents....

[Bryn]

Hmmm. Do you mean "earlier posts" on this Thread, Alpie? Looking at posts which mention HIPP recordings (excluding those in your OPs)

Bryn #8 (having previously mentioned Gieseking, and later going on to enthuse about Gould & Stokowski) pointed out that there were no recordings (that he knew of) that attempted to reproduce the alla breve marking in the original orchestral parts.
Verismissmo #20 listed the few available HIPP recordings and requested recommendations.
vinty #21 gave an additional recording, then his own preference as requested by Verismissimo. vinty suggested that "Unreconstructed fans of well-upholstered big-band Beethoven will not like it at all...", perhaps a little prejudiced, but an opinion more confirmed by anti-HIPP comments from Conchis, and (if I've understood his #79 correctly) Bbm. (And later vinty posted his enjoyment of Stokie/Gould)
gurnemanz #33, suggested that he might get a recommended HIPP recording to go alongside his current collection of "Big Band" recordings.
Tony #38, added another HIPP recording to verismissimo's list, and in #62 (not that much "earlier" than your own #78) expressed the hope that Kenyon would choose two versions - making clear his own preference, but in terms I took to seek to balance Conchis' holier-than-thou comment in #60.

So, I'm still rather at a loss as to which "persistent" Forumistas you refer, Alpie - at the very least, on this Thread, the discussion has been quite well balanced.

We now have a YouTube link to quote every time someone uses the old "Emperor's new clothes" saw.

I am just so delighted to have been 'reunited' with that BBC2 programme.

[MickyD]

We now have a YouTube link to quote every time someone uses the old "Emperor's new clothes" saw.

I am just so delighted to have been 'reunited' with that BBC2 programme.

Me too, Bryn, well done! And how fascinating to see that line up of well-known period instrument players looking so young. It brought back some great memories of my London concert-going at that time.

[vinteuil]

Thank you so much for naming the pianist. At last, I have been able to track down that misremembered programme I referred to earlier.

See 20:00hrs, here: https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/schedule...and/1981-06-17

I just wish I could see/hear it again.

Hurray!

.... this is marvellous. Many thanks to Micky and Bryn for making it available. I particularly liked his insights into pedalling. Lovely, too, as Micky says, to see them all SO YOUNG!


.


.

[Bryn]

.... this is marvellous. Many thanks to Micky and Bryn for making it available. I particularly liked his insights into pedalling. Lovely, too, as Micky says, to see them all SO YOUNG!

One thing I had forgotten about the two movements from 'the Emperor' performed for the programme was that they were quite separate 'takes' and the volume level of the transitional orchestra chord varied between the two. Back in the days of cassette tapes, I made a quick and dirty edit by copying between two cassette decks. This evening I have made another such edit of the two movements, this time using Sound Forge Pro 12, and adjusting the levels to somewhat ameliorate the problem at the transition. For the next 7 days, an mp3 of that edit will be available for download from here. Bear in mind that the source was mono, and would seem to have come from a video tape of the broadcast. It does give a fair idea of the tempi argued for in the programme, however.

[verismissimo]

Since I was the one who may have started this particular hare, it might be useful to say something about my own 'journey' with music, with particular reference to this concerto. Although I was listening to classical music a good deal from my early teens, I only started collecting recordings in the mid-1960s. My first LP of the Emperor was with Foldes/Leitner, which I adored, then as time passed with many other 'big band' performances, among them Arrau/Haitink (another love affair), Nakajima/Tschupp (following an early BAL mentioned in an earlier post), Firkusny/Steinberg, Fleisher/Szell, Brendel/Haitink and Gulda/Stein.

I started becoming deeply interested in historical performing practice some time in the late 1970s, listening to early recordings and going to concerts by the emerging gang of HIPP-based orchestras - AAM, OAE and others. Then I started doing some consulting work particularly with OAE and was enabled to go to rehearsals as well as performances. It undoubtedly took a while for my ears to adjust to new sound worlds, with different instruments, changes in pitch and radically different ways of playing - most obviously with the disappearance of continuous vibrato.

Nevertheless, my enjoyment of these new sounds seemed to have no effect on the pleasure gained from the sounds that I'd grown up with. So in recent months, I've much enjoyed Emperors with Paul Lewis/Belohlavek, Kovacevich/Australian CO and most recently the wonderful Kempff/Leitner from 1962.
Yet, although I still have 6 or 8 'big band' recordings, I still have no HIPP recording of the Emperor, which led to my focused enquiry in #20.

It may appear that I'm obsessed by HIPP recordings, but, having collected for over half a century, it's where I still have many gaps. So I'm looking forward with the greatest anticipation to listening to Schumann's piano quintet played by La Gaia Scienza, recommended so persuasively by Jayne.

[Bryn]

Back around 1980, I had more LPs of the 'Emperor' than any other work by any composer. I have still to find a recording in which the 'slow' movement is played at the tempo which the cut time on the original orchestra parts (supposedly wrongly missing its strike-through in the copy prepared in a hand other than Beethoven's of the full score). There was an interesting television programme on this topic in the early to mid-1980s. I recorded the soundtrack to cassette at the time, but have since lost it. The second and third movements were played on original instruments to illustrate the argument in favour of a tempo around twice that most often encountered in modern times. I found the quicker tempo very convincing. The nearest on disc is that by Tan, the LCP and Norrington. They take their tempi from Czerny's metronome markings. The search continues.

As a follow-up to re-discovering "The Emperor's New Clothes" Workshop programme, the timings of the 2 LCP recordings are van Barthold 4'24" and Tan 5'47". Contrast those with, say, Gould/Stockie 9'23", and the latter is not that untypical of 'traditional' pre-HIPP performances based on editorial misreadings and/or revisions of the original materials. The slower performances can sound very enticing, but there can be no real doubt that they misrepresent the composer's intentions.

[MickyD]

But you can't do much about it when it happens can you? Once a piece is over for you - when it's gone, it's gone. True for me of Dvorak 9, Le Sacre, and sadly, it seems quite a few Mahler Symphonies as well. Paradoxically, some of them come back if you play them a few times in unfamiliar recordings (I had this experience with Nielsen recently) but some are over for ever. Happens to conductors too of course. Remember Karajan on the Mahler 9?

I looked up an old friend after about 20 years. Classic working-class-boy-made-good, from the Council Estate to the Cityboy stockbroker, then Private Equity with his own International Finance Boutique.
It backfired on me badly....
Dismayingly rightwing, his sympathies with UKIP, Le Pen, US Republicans (before Brexit or Trump actually happened ...) scornfully dismissive of opposing ideas....we were once very close (Arts-Students "growing up together intellectually"), but despite friendly initial meetings, the correspondence ended very sourly...

Dread to think of the musical equivalents....

I frequently get invited to old-school reunions - political leanings often come through in conversation (not from me, I might add) and any atmosphere of good times in the past are spoiled. I've made a point of not going to them anymore, which is sad. I just look back happily at what we once shared.

[Barbirollians]

I frequently get invited to old-school reunions - political leanings often come through in conversation (not from me, I might add) and any atmosphere of good times in the past are spoiled. I've made a point of not going to them anymore, which is sad. I just look back happily at what we once shared.

I don’t think we are comparing like with like - that is not meeting up with a dear friend you have not seen for a while it is meeting up with a former friend who you have lost touch with.