BaL 9.02.19 - Beethoven: Piano Concerto no 5 in E flat "Emperor"

[edashtav]

Hmm, pace Barbs, it really is slow, to the point of - almost - becoming becalmed. I also thought that Solomon was teetering on the fine line between being beautifully played and being self-indulgent, as in, "beautiful playing for beautiful playing's sake", rather at the expense of the flow/line of the music. I didn't think that the transition into the final movement was particularly well-handled, which I put down to the slow tempo. And, in fairness to NK, given that there are frequent moans on the BaL thread about too few musical illustrations, I thought that he almost went too far the other way. In view of the sheer number of recordings, he was bound to omit/skip recordings dear to boarders' hearts - and if that included Solomon, I don't think that that was a capital offence.

I thought that NK's point about performances being faster in earlier decades, then slowing up from the 50s onwards then speeding up again was interesting, although Uchida/Rattle is clearly a recent exception. As a comparison with Solomon, I dug out Gieseking/VPO/Walter (recorded in 1934), which is 2 minutes faster than Solomon and sounds "righter", tempo-wise. OK, it's not nearly as well played as Solomon or Gilels - and it's all a matter of personal taste - but, ancient recording notwithstanding, it sounded more Beethovenian to me.

NK did not mention the tyrrany of 4 minute sides on 78r.p.m. records that could, and did, affect interpretations on shellac.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There does not seem much change in approach to this Adagio relatively recently Brendel with Rattle and Uchida seem well above 8 minutes .

Well, no - one would hardly expect performers of Brendel's generation and training to change the habits of a lifetime so radically (and that Emperor was recorded exactly eleven years ago this month! ). And that treatment is gorgeous - although I find it much more compelling in his Haitink cycle from <gulp> over forty years ago - and it's not difficult to see why so many listeners find it an "authentic" (in the fullest sense of the word) experience. But that doesn't alter the fact that all the evidence points to Beethoven intending a (much) quicker (in the fullest sense of that word) pacing.

[Barbirollians]

Hmm, pace Barbs, it really is slow, to the point of - almost - becoming becalmed. I also thought that Solomon was teetering on the fine line between being beautifully played and being self-indulgent, as in, "beautiful playing for beautiful playing's sake", rather at the expense of the flow/line of the music. I didn't think that the transition into the final movement was particularly well-handled, which I put down to the slow tempo. And, in fairness to NK, given that there are frequent moans on the BaL thread about too few musical illustrations, I thought that he almost went too far the other way. In view of the sheer number of recordings, he was bound to omit/skip recordings dear to boarders' hearts - and if that included Solomon, I don't think that that was a capital offence.

I thought that NK's point about performances being faster in earlier decades, then slowing up from the 50s onwards then speeding up again was interesting, although Uchida/Rattle is clearly a recent exception. As a comparison with Solomon, I dug out Gieseking/VPO/Walter (recorded in 1934), which is 2 minutes faster than Solomon and sounds "righter", tempo-wise. OK, it's not nearly as well played as Solomon or Gilels - and it's all a matter of personal taste - but, ancient recording notwithstanding, it sounded more Beethovenian to me.

Ah well to each their own - I don’t hear it like that at all. A quick scan of my shelves shows Horowitz,Barenboim,Fleisher, Arrau,Gilels/Ludwig ,SBK/Davis ,Lill/Gibson,all longer -Zimerman/Bernstein 44 seconds slower so it does not seem that the tempo of the Adagio played much of a role in Solomon being ignored.

Fischer - 30 seconds quicker Brendel ,Pollini and Gulda only a few seconds quicker - Leaving aside Tan/Norrington only Casadesus/Rosbaud & a live Ogden/Horenstein significantly quicker( more than a minute ) and Uchida/Sanderling only two seconds faster.

[Barbirollians]

NK did not mention the tyrrany of 4 minute sides on 78r.p.m. records that could, and did, affect interpretations on shellac.

Indeed , when Gieseking recorded the work with HVK in the 1950s he was only 40 seconds quicker.

[Bryn]

Brautigam/Parrott 6'19" (Brautigam playing a Steinway D, remember); Pizarro/Mackerras 6'04"; Newman/Simon 5'52" . . .

[Bryn]

Indeed , when Gieseking recorded the work with HVK in the 1950s he was only 40 seconds quicker.

I think the only Gieseking recording of the 5th I have is the January 1945 live one with Rother (7'29"). That was recorded to stereo tape.

[Bryn]

Back around 1980, I had more LPs of the 'Emperor' than any other work by any composer. I have still to find a recording in which the 'slow' movement is played at the tempo which the cut time on the original orchestra parts (supposedly wrongly missing its strike-through in the copy prepared in a hand other than Beethoven's of the full score). There was an interesting television programme on this topic in the early to mid-1980s. I recorded the soundtrack to cassette at the time, but have since lost it. The second and third movements were played on original instruments to illustrate the argument in favour of a tempo around twice that most often encountered in modern times. I found the quicker tempo very convincing. The nearest on disc is that by Tan, the LCP and Norrington. They take their tempi from Czerny's metronome markings. The search continues.

Looks like the search has been more successful than I expected, with several more recent recordings than the Tan/Norrington respecting the alla breve (cut time) marking, with at least two using modern beefed-up instruments.

[Goon525]

NK made an error here? He played a Pollini extract claiming it was from a VPO/Abbado version? But the VPO Pollini is with Bohm...I don't know them well enough to say which he actually played, but on the basis of my knowledge of Pollini's versions of the 4th, I'd go for the VPO/Bohm rather than the BPO/Abbado.

Many years ago, a friend and I compared the Perahia/Haitink with the Pollini/Bohm (I hold all four of these artists in the very highest regard). Somewhat to our surprise, the Pollini was vastly superior, full of Beethovenian weight, power and momentum. The Perahia, much lauded at the time, seemed dull and lightweight in comparison.

[Alison]

Many years ago, a friend and I compared the Perahia/Haitink with the Pollini/Bohm (I hold all four of these artists in the very highest regard). Somewhat to our surprise, the Pollini was vastly superior, full of Beethovenian weight, power and momentum. The Perahia, much lauded at the time, seemed dull and lightweight in comparison.

I trust you have the Pollini set of piano sonatas.

[MickyD]

The Story of the Piano "grew out of a television programme - 'How did it sound to Beethoven - the story of piano sound through 250 years'". To my delight, that programme too is on YouTube:

Despite the age of this film, it is a remarkable document, not least for the fact that it features such important instruments from various museums. I hadn't realised that Van Barthold was such a versatile player and he speaks so well, too. His face resembles a thinner version of Christopher Hogwood. Well worth watching.

[Bryn]

Despite the age of this film, it is a remarkable document, not least for the fact that it features such important instruments from various museums. I hadn't realised that Van Barthold was such a versatile player and he speaks so well, too. His face resembles a thinner version of Christopher Hogwood. Well worth watching.

I finally stumped up the registration fee to remove the 'watermark' QR code from the top left corner of captures by Video Downloadhelper to save the three van Barthold programmes found on YouTube. Now to go back and re-download other items I saved (with the 'watermark' previously). It could take some time.

[Barbirollians]

Many years ago, a friend and I compared the Perahia/Haitink with the Pollini/Bohm (I hold all four of these artists in the very highest regard). Somewhat to our surprise, the Pollini was vastly superior, full of Beethovenian weight, power and momentum. The Perahia, much lauded at the time, seemed dull and lightweight in comparison.

The Perahia/Haitink was a disappointment at the time after the first four concertos had been so outstanding .

[silvestrione]

modern beefed-up instruments.

The second time you've used that ugly dismissive expression. Do you not like the modern piano as an instrument, Bryn, the Steinway in particular? For me they are wonderful, I don't own one but I get to play a vintage Steinway from time to time, beautifully rich and varied in tone. There is power, but thrilling power (just try young Brendel in his Vox recording, in the great chords and octaves in the development section). The instruments played by Pollini, Uchida, Brendel, Curzon (those trills!) et al, I just love them. And the range is so great. If you move away from the present work, as Andreas Schiff commented a few years back, what a wonderful instrument Schnabel had for his Schubert D.960 recording....I don't think we know what make it is (was).

[Bryn]

The modern grand piano is a wonderful development from the instruments Beethoven knew and composed for. "Beefed up" refers to the structural reinforcement now incorporated not only into pianos, but string instrument, etc. It is not a value judgement against such instruments but a description recognising their major differences in construction. Trying to play, say, Stockhausen's Klavierstücke IX on an early 19th Century Walter, for instance, would be a fool's errand.

[MickyD]

I finally stumped up the registration fee to remove the 'watermark' QR code from the top left corner of captures by Video Downloadhelper to save the three van Barthold programmes found on YouTube. Now to go back and re-download other items I saved (with the 'watermark' previously). It could take some time.

But what is the third programme, Bryn?