BaL 5.1.19 - Debussy: String Quartet.

[BBMmk2]

Sounds though the Ebéne is a cd to get!

[Stanfordian]

Sounds though the Ebéne is a cd to get!

Yes. It's a fine release.

[HighlandDougie]

As ever, late to the party (my excuse is that I'm in Hong Kong) but, irrespective of the recommendation, I really enjoyed Laura Tunbridge's presentational style - professional, articulate and engaging. She managed to cram in quite a lot of musical illustrations in her 45 minutes - and I was interested in her observation that modern performances of the quartet tend towards the "febrile", an observation borne out by a live performance of the quartet I heard a couple of months ago. I suddenly remembered that I had bought the Arcanto performance from Qobuz (in 2011 - it doesn't seem that long ago) so was able to download it here in HK. I still very much like the Quartetto Italiano - and the Ebène - but the Arcanto recording ios a very sound recommendation.

[teamsaint]

As ever, late to the party (my excuse is that I'm in Hong Kong) but, irrespective of the recommendation, I really enjoyed Laura Tunbridge's presentational style - professional, articulate and engaging. She managed to cram in quite a lot of musical illustrations in her 45 minutes - and I was interested in her observation that modern performances of the quartet tend towards the "febrile", an observation borne out by a live performance of the quartet I heard a couple of months ago. I suddenly remembered that I had bought the Arcanto performance from Qobuz (in 2011 - it doesn't seem that long ago) so was able to download it here in HK. I still very much like the Quartetto Italiano - and the Ebène - but the Arcanto recording ios a very sound recommendation.

Surely if you are in HK, you should be ahead of us ?

Anyway, I'm even later, but guess what, by sheer chance, a copy of the Italiano recording appeared in a box at my house this very morning. Better listen to the prog now.......

[Constantbee]

A welcome assessment of recordings from Laura Tunbridge on this Well paced, thoughtful, clear, informed without being patronising, with plenty of attention to the score and performance detail which ought to appeal to students of all ages. (Starting at 30 minutes into the programme, lasting c 44 minutes).

[Master Jacques]

In the light of the renewed enthusiasm for the Ebène recording, I thought I'd have another listen tonight to see if I still felt the same subtle disquiet, and if so to try and pin down my reservations.

There's no doubt that the playing and recording are superb. This is demonstration quality, technically and artistically. And there is no sniffing! Response to the reading will I think depend on how one sees the work itself, whether as a progressive but essentially late-19th century work in the Franck/Faure tradition; or as a piece looking forward to the neurotic, restless uncertainties of the 20th century.

Of course it isn't just one or the other. It can be either, or both. And it seems to me that the Ebène Quartet have planted their flag very much on the 20th century side of the fence. Tempi, phrasing and dynamics are strongly emphasised, even exaggerated - where pp is marked, the playing is ppp, crescendos begin with a drop in volume, speeds tend to the extremes of Debussy's own markings. In particular the 'slow movement' is really slow (crotchet=c.55-60 rather than the marked crotchet=80) and there's a marginal loss of flow. A good example of this is the opening motif of the last movement, which is given a skittering, light-bowed stutter at the end of the every phrase which almost brings to mind Berg's Lyric Suite. It is an impressive effect, but does seem micro-managed on repetition.

In a phrase, the Ebène give us a heavily (though brilliantly) "interpreted" reading of Debussy's Quartet. Unlike some of their older rivals - notably the Tokyo and Italian Quartets, both more in the "19th century" camp - they rarely "let go" to allow the music to "play itself". It is undeniably an impressive performance which I shall be keeping in my collection, but in the last analysis it is one which sometimes risks drawing me into the virtuoso playing, rather than the actual music.

I would not put anyone off: if you love your Bartók, Schoenberg and Berg (as I do) then you'll find the Ebènes stimulating. But maybe as a "second recording" rather than Library 1st choice. I'm looking forward myself to hearing the Danels, sniffs and all!

[Beef Oven!]

In the light of the renewed enthusiasm for the Ebène recording, I thought I'd have another listen tonight to see if I still felt the same subtle disquiet, and if so to try and pin down my reservations.

There's no doubt that the playing and recording are superb. This is demonstration quality, technically and artistically. And there is no sniffing! Response to the reading will I think depend on how one sees the work itself, whether as a progressive but essentially late-19th century work in the Franck/Faure tradition; or as a piece looking forward to the neurotic, restless uncertainties of the 20th century.

Of course it isn't just one or the other. It can be either, or both. And it seems to me that the Ebène Quartet have planted their flag very much on the 20th century side of the fence. Tempi, phrasing and dynamics are strongly emphasised, even exaggerated - where pp is marked, the playing is ppp, crescendos begin with a drop in volume, speeds tend to the extremes of Debussy's own markings. In particular the 'slow movement' is really slow (crotchet=c.55-60 rather than the marked crotchet=80) and there's a marginal loss of flow. A good example of this is the opening motif of the last movement, which is given a skittering, light-bowed stutter at the end of the every phrase which almost brings to mind Berg's Lyric Suite. It is an impressive effect, but does seem micro-managed on repetition.

In a phrase, the Ebène give us a heavily (though brilliantly) "interpreted" reading of Debussy's Quartet. Unlike some of their older rivals - notably the Tokyo and Italian Quartets, both more in the "19th century" camp - they rarely "let go" to allow the music to "play itself". It is undeniably an impressive performance which I shall be keeping in my collection, but in the last analysis it is one which sometimes risks drawing me into the virtuoso playing, rather than the actual music.

I would not put anyone off: if you love your Bartók, Schoenberg and Berg (as I do) then you'll find the Ebènes stimulating. But maybe as a "second recording" rather than Library 1st choice. I'm looking forward myself to hearing the Danels, sniffs and all!

Very interesting observations, thank you.

I struggle with the idea of this work as anything other than a "progressive but essentially late-19th century work in the Franck/Faure tradition", and I adore Bartók, Schoenberg and Berg!

Of the three recordings that I have, Kodaly Quartet on Naxos, the Belceas and the recently acquired Quartetto Italiano, it is the latter that I enjoy most. I think you hit the nail on the head when you say the Italians "rarely let go" and allow the music to "play itself". This really works, where the Belceas don't - even though they are evidently amazing musicians caught in splendid sound quality. Although I've persevered with the Kodaly Naxos CD for over 25 years, I think it's really poor (but the Ravel coupling is quite good).

I still haven't re-listened to the programme, but from the real-time broadcast, it was the Quatuor Danel that really struck me. It was not an extended excerpt, so I must exercise caution. I do not mind sniffs or breathing, Glenn Gould singing along or the innumerable conductors that grunt, groan and hum-along, so I'm not put off. I also enjoy the QD in the various other sets that I have. I imagine I will get the download.

This afternoon I listened to the Italians on my DAP during a walk through the forest and it's hard to know how this romantic performance can be bettered.

[Barbirollians]

I bought the Belcea after the 2004 BAL and have heard a good few performances over the years but the Quartetto Italiano’s recording and the same can be said for its terrific Ravel coupling is unsurpassed in my experience . It deserves all the plaudits it gets.

[ardcarp]

That's a helpful and thoughtful post Master J.[#66] I always think of Debussy's Piano Preludes as a sort of watershed in his art, where he began [as someone naively put it] composing with sounds rather than notes. The word 'impressionist' has often been unwisely bandied about too. Debussy himself said:

‘I’m trying to write “something different”– realities in a way; imbeciles call it “impressionism” which is a term used as inappropriately as possible, particularly by art critics.’

Well, even if 'impressionist' could be applied to the Preludes, it certainly couldn't to the SQ.

Why am I talking about piano pieces? Well because the SQ is definitely pre-watershed. So from your comment....

[It] depend on how one sees the work itself, whether as a progressive but essentially late-19th century work in the Franck/Faure tradition; or as a piece looking forward to the neurotic, restless uncertainties of the 20th century

.... I am firmly in the former camp. In the SQ, Debussy uses many 'traditional' techniques such as motivic development and the repetition of 2 or 4-bar phrases, though of course his harmonic language and innovative textures take us beyond Faure and way beyond Franck. So it is a transitional piece to my way of thinking. It hasn't the 'at ease with itself' air of Ravel's SQ, but I've never liked the way the two quartets are often bracketed together (e.g. on CDs) as if they made a pair. They are so different, and I would say that Debussy's is open, as BAL showed, to more complex stylistic interpretations.

[Beef Oven!]

ardcarp, you and I both in the former camp. I would be interested to hear from anyone who views the work as being in the latter ......

[edashtav]

ardcarp, you and I both in the former camp. I would be interested to hear from anyone who views the work as being in the latter ......

Count me in your team, too, Beefy... I'm ready to man the barricades againgst the concept of a Franck / Fauré tradition, although agreeing with much else the thoughtful Master has to say. More later, I hope, when I've addressed family turbulence.

[Richard Barrett]

whether as a progressive but essentially late-19th century work in the Franck/Faure tradition; or as a piece looking forward to the neurotic, restless uncertainties of the 20th century

As you say, these aren't mutually exclusive... nor are they the only possibilities: looking forward to the 20th century doesn't necessarily involve being neurotic. Ardcarp draws attention to the repetition of 2- or 4-bar phrases, but this is actually a more or less constant feature of Debussy's music at least until Jeux which I think everyone can agree is a highly innovative piece.

One reason I favour the Kuijken Ensemble recording is that after the quartet you get all three chamber sonatas, and this programming makes clear what are the connections and disconnections between these pieces which are so widely separated in time. But to me the Debussy Quartet announces from its first seconds that it emerges more from a new way of musical thinking than from an old one.

[edashtav]

[…] But to me the Debussy Quartet announces from its first seconds that it emerges more from a new way of musical thinking than from an old one.

Well written... what a welcome addition to the Barrettcade!

[edashtav]

I want to return to the Master's statement:

"Response to the reading will I think depend on how one sees the work itself, whether as a progressive but essentially late-19th century work in the Franck/Faure tradition; or as a piece looking forward to the neurotic, restless uncertainties of the 20th century."

I contest the validity of a Franck/Fauré tradition on two levels: its very existence and its nature when Debussy was writing his quartet.

Franck and Fauré quickly grew apart. They valued different aspects of music. Franck loved colour and mass. Which came first? Aristide Cavaillé Coll's latest grand organ confected with "bells and whistles" or César Frank's latest organ work decorated with registration instructions that demanded such novel sounds? "Mon nouvel orgue?" "C'est un orchestre." [CF]

Fauré, too, was an organist, but he demanded little of his instrument, if he could improvise quietly on it and play music by Mendelssohn and JSB that would suffice. He composed no music for what had become the Romantic King of Instruments. Fauré's music doesn't depend on timbre or volume: rather it's full of fine, careful craftsmanship, its sinuous and subtly inflected lines grow growvfrom harmonies that are neither obvious nor dully stable. If Fauré is part of a tradition then the line runs backwards from Ravel, the favourite pupil of Fauré who was the beloved student of Saint-Saens.

By 1893, Fauré had created no corpus of chamber music sufficient to be a tradition upon which Debussy could build. He had written one forward looking violin sonata and a Mendelssohnian Piano Quartet. Folk often compare Gabriel's First Violin Sonata with César's, thinking the latter to be the earlier, and a model for the Frenchman. Actually, GF's was composed first and the affinity between its opening Allegro and the Belgian's second caused Charles Koechlin a deal of mirth as he quipped,"Render unto Gabriel, and not unto César, that which is Gabriel's."

[ardcarp]

Fauré's music doesn't depend on timbre or volume: rather it's full of fine, careful craftsmanship, its sinuous and subtly inflected lines grow growvfrom harmonies that are neither obvious nor dully stable. If Fauré is part of a tradition then the line runs backwards from Ravel, the favourite pupil of Fauré who was the beloved student of Saint-Saens.

I think you've put your finger of the influence of Fauré (though I'm not sure a Darwinist would like the idea of traditions running backwards!) I'm a big devotee of
Fauré songs. There are so many little quirks...non-disruptive quirks it has to be said....in his harmonic language, which I feel certain contributed to the unmistakable early 2othC 'French sound'. Here is an interesting observation about La Bonne Chanson (a song cycle):

"The work was not well received [at its premiere] by the musically conservative audience. Camille Saint-Saëns declared that Fauré had gone mad."

Incidentally Faure made a string quartet version of La Bonne Chanson, which I can't remember ever having heard on Radio 3. I've got it on CD somewhere with the Lydians...but have to rush off and can't find it right now.