BaL 20.10.18 - Bach: Keyboard concertos - BWV.1052-58

[ardcarp]

...yes, there is no one way of doing stuff. Practical considerations rule.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Mark Lowther said something to the effect ‘what happens in the control room, the luxury that wasn’t available to Bach and his performers’. Or to his audience, I suppose. How much or in what way does this issue come into when thinking about performing/listening to Bach’s (or Vivaldi, Corelli and others) music?

I suppose that it depends on what the listener wants from a recording, and how far this matches what the artists (performers and recording staff) want to achieve with a recording. Some prefer the effect of listening to a work (and I think it applies to, say, Mahler as much as to Bach) as if in a good seat in a Concert Hall; others as if they're in amongst the performers; others go for a more deliberately "interventionist" approach, attempting to imagine the balances and timbres that the score suggests to them (giving the Celesta a bit of a "boost" at the end of Das Lied von der Erde, for example).

Personally, I feel that, because I listen to recordings (and broadcasts) in a 16-foot-square room - a highly artificial way of hearing most of the Music I play - all the approaches can give different perspectives on a work, widening my appreciation of it. It can give a "false" idea of what to expect in a Live performance, of course - but that's to be taken as read: people don't expect the sort of close-ups you get in a film/TV programme when going to the theatre.

[Richard Barrett]

Baroque violins with gut strings are much quieter and used 3 or 4 to a part will not overwhelm either a chamber choir or a harpsichord.

We aren't talking about "overwhelming" it though, but showcasing it as a solo instrument. I'm basing this on attending my fair share of both well- and badly-balanced baroque ensembles. Anyway, as far as I know there aren't any properly sourced arguments in favour of "3 or 4 to a part" being used in Bach's ensemble music (apart from the idea that it's "reasonable" in some way, based on the notion that something called a concerto necessarily requires an "orchestra" which was something of an alien conception to Bach). Whereas on the other hand there are many indications that this was probably not the case, including as Bryn says the size of the room that was used for the performances. Indeed, practical considerations are always foremost, but practical considerations are what composers work with when conceiving and writing their scores. Often the idea of "what the composer would have wanted" rears its head, but this I think misunderstands the relationship between practical considerations and the composition process.

[Bryn]

We aren't talking about "overwhelming" it though, but showcasing it as a solo instrument. I'm basing this on attending my fair share of both well- and badly-balanced baroque ensembles. Anyway, as far as I know there aren't any properly sourced arguments in favour of "3 or 4 to a part" being used in Bach's ensemble music (apart from the idea that it's "reasonable" in some way, based on the notion that something called a concerto necessarily requires an "orchestra" which was something of an alien conception to Bach). Whereas on the other hand there are many indications that this was probably not the case, including as Bryn says the size of the room that was used for the performances. Indeed, practical considerations are always foremost, but practical considerations are what composers work with when conceiving and writing their scores. Often the idea of "what the composer would have wanted" rears its head, but this I think misunderstands the relationship between practical considerations and the composition process.

And it's not just during Bach's time that the matter of performance space had a role. I am particiularly taken buy the Schoonderwoerd/Cristofori recordings of Beethoven's percussive keyboard concertos. The size of the ensembles used for these was determined by the size of the original venues in which they were first performed by Beethoven and co. For opera 15, 19, 37 and 61a, the string complement of Cristofori was 2 violins, 2 violas, 1 cello and 1 double bass. For opera 58 and 73 and extra cello was added.

[Richard Barrett]

And it's not just during Bach's time that the matter of performance space had a role. I am particiularly taken buy the Schoonderwoerd/Cristofori recordings of Beethoven's percussive keyboard concertos. The size of the ensembles used for these was determined by the size of the original venues in which they were first performed by Beethoven and co. For opera 15, 19, 37 and 61a, the string complement of Cristofori was 2 violins, 2 violas, 1 cello and 1 double bass. For opera 58 and 73 and extra cello was added.

There you go. Which of course is not to say that this is henceforth the only way these works are to be performed!

I did find it a bit difficult getting used to OVPP in Bach's vocal ensemble music, probably partly because of the rather large outlay involved in acquiring the sets of recordings by Harnoncourt/Leonhardt, Koopman and Gardiner! - but the thought that if Bach wrote the music for these forces one should at least take seriously the idea of listening to them in that form eventually proved decisive, and actually I'm not very keen on listening to them sung by larger groups any more. I didn't have this problem with Bach's instrumental ensemble music (as recorded for example by Leonhardt, Café Zimmermann etc.) because it always sounded "self-evidently" right to me in terms of clarity, texture and balance, without any help from recording technology. I take the point that a recording is an artificial construct from the start, but using this artificiality to support spurious ideas of what's "reasonable" in terms of performer numbers seems to me inappropriate.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

For opera 15, 19, 37 and 61a, the string complement of Cristofori was 2 violins, 2 violas, 1 cello and 1 double bass. For opera 58 and 73 and extra cello was added.

Thanks for clarifying the 'cello numbers - can I also check that two each of first and second violins is also meant?

[Bryn]

Thanks for clarifying the 'cello numbers - can I also check that two each of first and second violins is also meant?

No (misread you at first). Just 2 violins. Please note that the leader is listed separately from the rest of the ensemble in the booklet for opera 15 and 19.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

[Bryn]

If you do not know these recordings, I would adjure you to rectify that situation. Not, as Richard rightly says, the only way to play these works, and I do have a problem with what to me is too slow a tempo for the 'slow' movement of Op. 73 (the old cut time or common time issue). BNO'H's ignorant 1 star review of opera 58 and 73 on Amazon should be enough of a fillip. The whole survey, replete with digital booklet, can be found at very reasonable price on QOBUZ.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

They have been on my "list" (it's become more of a mobius strip, with a seeming infinite capacity) - but whilst I don't have recordings of these Bach works, this rectification might take some time.

I've been trying (without success) to find out the size of orchestra used on the van Immerseel/Tafelmusik/Weil set of the Beethoven Piano Concertos (etc) from the late '90s - anyone know?

[Bryn]

They have been on my "list" (it's become more of a mobius strip, with a seeming infinite capacity) - but whilst I don't have recordings of these Bach works, this rectification might take some time.

I've been trying (without success) to find out the size of orchestra used on the van Immerseel/Tafelmusik/Weil set of the Beethoven Piano Concertos (etc) from the late '90s - anyone know?

It's 7 first violins, 6 second violins, 4 violas, 3 cellos, 2 double basses, throughout.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's 7 first violins, 6 second violins, 4 violas, 3 cellos, 2 double basses, throughout.

[ardcarp]

Back to Bach. I think there was an instrumental band of around 22 at Weimar and 18 at Cothen. It's fair to assume that at least two thirds would have been string players...of which Bach was one. He was Kappellmeister in both those places, but a member of the band. [I'm writing from memory here.]

[Bryn]

Back to Bach. I think there was an instrumental band of around 22 at Weimar and 18 at Cothen. It's fair to assume that at least two thirds would have been string players...of which Bach was one. He was Kappellmeister in both those places, but a member of the band. [I'm writing from memory here.]

Yes, but how many of them would have participated in the Café Zimmermann concerts?

[vinteuil]

They have been on my "list" (it's become more of a mobius strip, with a seeming infinite capacity) - but whilst I don't have recordings of these Bach works, this rectification might take some time.

... for Beethoven read Bach. Or wicy wercy...

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