BaL 23.06.18 - Debussy: Sonata for Violin and Piano

[Richard Barrett]

I'm very happy with my CD of Sigiswald Kuijken playing the Sonata wonderfully, with Piet Kuijken eliciting beautiful sonorities from an 1894 straight-strung Erard piano. This is a totally enchanting CD comprising all Debussy's chamber music played by six members of the Kuijken family plus the harpist Sophie Hallynck.

Thanks for the reminder Tony, I haven't listened to that one for ages.

[Bryn]

I'm very happy with my CD of Sigiswald Kuijken playing the Sonata wonderfully, with Piet Kuijken eliciting beautiful sonorities from an 1894 straight-strung Erard piano. This is a totally enchanting CD comprising all of Debussy's chamber music played variously by six members of the Kuijken family plus the harpist Sophie Hallynck.

Thanks for mentioning this. I was quite unaware of its existence. I see it is available from QOBUZ (replete with scanned booklet) and will investigate further.

[vinteuil]

I'm very happy with my CD of Sigiswald Kuijken playing the Sonata wonderfully, with Piet Kuijken eliciting beautiful sonorities from an 1894 straight-strung Erard piano. This is a totally enchanting CD comprising all of Debussy's chamber music played variously by six members of the Kuijken family plus the harpist Sophie Hallynck.

... and again, many thanks. I too was unaware of this. Now on order...



.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thanks for mentioning this. I was quite unaware of its existence.

Nor was I - on the list for ordering next week. (Why on earth wasn't this featured on the programme?!)

[Stanfordian]

Nor was I - on the list for ordering next week. (Why on earth wasn't this featured on the programme?!)

Interns doing the research. Ha!

[ardcarp]

but he played La fille aux cheveux de lin beautifully and Oistrakh was rather good at Clair de lune too.

Piano pieces?

My old Dad was a big Heifetz fan..and Oistrakh too...but it's a generational thing. I think that possibly early 20th century violini-playing style involved less schmolz than that used by the big names mid-century.

I have managed to reach my ripe old state-pensionable age without being aware of Shenkerian analysis, only recently seeing it mentioned in this forum.
Not sure that I feel an overwhelming sense of urgency to learn all about it now.

I think in this case ignorance is definitely bliss.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Piano pieces?

Arraigned for violin & piano.

[ardcarp]

Why?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Why?

No idea - there are many successful arrangements of songs and piano pieces for violin & piano, where the melody is given to the violin, and the piano does the hard stuff - but Debussy's textures and harmonies are not well served by such simplistic distribution. They make the case that these works can't be so treated, I suppose; which gives an insight into what Debussy was doing that was different from the techniques of the composers of such earlier bonbons.

[ardcarp]

..and it gives programmes such as Essential Classics and Breakfast the perfect excuse for playing everything in a version for which it wasn't composed.

[Master Jacques]

The amazon.com site also has just one review, and that gives it a more credible 4 stars, with the case argued.

I would agree, Bryn. It's a solid but (to my ears) unremarkable traversal of these three French sonatas, which came and went from my collection quickly. Each to her own, of course, but Jennifer Pike's performance is more successful in creating rich sonorities than in articulating the violin part - and for me, unless we've a sense of a mercurial personality almost "speaking" the music doesn't lift off the page. Pike and Roscoe are a mite sluggish and heavy-handed.

Horse racing has something called a "mare's allowance" which means that female horses carry a few pounds less weight than the males in stakes races to increase their chance of winning: I couldn't help wondering if Ms Rae was awarding a "mare's allowance" in this race too.

My own Desert Island choice (for what it's worth) would be a cheap old Pickwick Classics CD with the incomparable Maurice Hasson and Christian Ivaldi. It's coupled with excellent performances of the Fauré A major sonata Op.13 and the Franck. This has everything which Pike misses in the way of "play of thought" as well as sonority. You can get 2nd-hand copies on Amazon for less than a Pret coffee:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/French-Sonatas-Violin-Maurice-Hasson/dp/B000N3XN7Q

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Horse racing has something called a "mare's allowance" which means that female horses carry a few pounds less weight than the males in stakes races to increase their chance of winning: I couldn't help wondering if Ms Rae was awarding a "mare's allowance" in this race too.

Or, perhaps, as Dr Rae said, she simply thought that Pike's recording best presented the work as her (CR) research had led her to understand what Debussy might have expected from his work? (Unless, of course, you also wonder if publishers Routledge and Ashgate were also awarding a "mare's allowance" in publishing her books - or, indeed, Cardiff University in employing her?)

[Richard Barrett]

Or, perhaps, as Dr Rae said, she simply thought that Pike's recording best presented the work as her (CR) research had led her to understand what Debussy might have expected from his work? (Unless, of course, you also wonder if publishers Routledge and Ashgate were also awarding a "mare's allowance" in publishing her books - or, indeed, Cardiff University in employing her?)

Quite. Master Jacques, what you're saying is sexist rubbish that has no place in an intelligent discussion.

Interesting though that people have such fixed and opposed ideas as to what a performance of this piece should bring out.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Interesting though that people have such fixed and opposed ideas as to what a performance of this piece should bring out.

Yes - which is part of the nature of the "radical" aspects of the work that LMP pointed out earlier. Firm (if not "fixed") opinions strongly held and expressed are essential to an intelligent and fruitful discussion about a work so rich in possibilities as this one - and there's no problem with disagreeing with a reviewer's final choice. After all, Dr Rae's researches and personal interpretation of the facts she discovers might well lead her to a different set of five recordings in another ten years. Sharing knowledge, ideas, and opinions - and vigorous disagreements - are the lifeblood of this Forum. That's part of what makes it worth sticking with, as far as I'm concerned.

But imposing uncharitable (to put it mildly) motives for a reviewer's final decision(s) is not something that I think brings anything of value to the Forum, or, for that matter, to those who indulge in such "imposings". Apologies if this sounds pompous - I'm sure it does - but I think, for the continued success of the Forum, that it needs to be made very clear.

[Master Jacques]

Oh dear. Richard, I beg to differ. "Mares allowances" are a fact in horse racing. Reviewers' prejudices in favour of one sex or the other are also on occasion a fact. My suggestion that this might have been the case in this particular BaL was based on careful attention to what I heard from the reviewer, not any possible prejudice of my own. I have no such prejudice.

I hope that in an "intelligent discussion" (as opposed to an emotive one) I may be permitted to present my wondering thought - presented as mine and mine alone - that Ms Rae might have been cutting Jennifer Pike some such slack, without being accused of coming out with "sexist rubbish". My thought was that any "sexism" here might possibly be in the eye (or ear) of the reviewer herself. But I wouldn't be dogmatic about it.

As to publishers, Ferneyhoughgeliebte ... of course they do employ these and similar "allowances" these days. Perhaps you missed what Lionel Shriver was saying about the dangers of "quota publishing" the other day? I note that she faced an indignant response for having the honesty to challenge the practice.

I've really no wish to pour oil on the matter, and am sorry to have caused offence by being uncharitable.

Returning to the programme, Dr Rae did what academic reviewers - even the best of them - often do: she evoked "fidelity to the score" when it agreed with her tastes (many of which I happened to share, by the way) and ignored it when it didn't. The truth is, that Pike and Roscoe are no more and no less faithful to the score than most of the other accomplished players who've recorded the work - and as Richard Barrett says, the interesting point here is that there are specially opposed ideas of what a performance of this work can bring out.

I myself would not say "fixed" or "should", as I (at least) like having my ideas challenged by new interpretations. Or indeed by accusations of talking "sexist rubbish", which is a new (and unpleasant) experience for me!