BaL 23.06.18 - Debussy: Sonata for Violin and Piano

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Have I somehow stumbled across one reason why Debussy is still regarded as a radical??

Very possibly, LMP - and everything you point out is true of the late Beethoven Quartets, too. (And Schumann's Fantasy in C, and ... and ... and ... )

One thing that particularly resonated with me from Dr Rae's comments was how the more the performers paid attention to the minutiae of the score, the greater the resulting sense of freedom and fantasy.

[LeMartinPecheur]

...everything you point out is true of the late Beethoven Quartets, too. (And Schumann's Fantasy in C, and ... and ... and ... )

Not sure I buy this fhg. I do experience these works as much deeper unities than the Debussy sonatas. Doesn't Schenkerian analysis give some sort of solid basis for this very incoherent impression: there is a large degree of thematic unity, obvious or well-concealed, in just about any Austro-German work of this period?

Or is it the case that such analysis will always find resemblances, to the point where clearly unrelated works can be linked up if one tries hard enough? And something that explains everything, explains nothing?

[Richard Barrett]

Doesn't Schenkerian analysis give some sort of solid basis for this very incoherent impression: there is a large degree of thematic unity, obvious or well-concealed, in just about any Austro-German work of this period?

Don't forget thought that this is precisely what Schenkerian analysis was deveoped in order to demonstrate. I would say there are kinds of unity and coherence that aren't covered by the Schenker way of looking at things.

[BBMmk2]

https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%2010667

Amazon here:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Franck-Debussy-Ravel-Violin-Sonatas/dp/B004Q2TWNE/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1529764739&sr=1-1&keywords=pike+roscoe

complete with "review".

Thanks PJPJ. It only has 1 star. Weird!

[Bryn]

Thanks PJPJ. It only has 1 star. Weird!

But based on its sole review and that is a truly pathetic excuse for a review. The amazon.com site also has just one review, and that gives it a more credible 4 stars, with the case argued.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

For me, Schenker is most useful (and very useful at that) in making clear the Tonal manoeuvrings of Music from c1710-1860-ish - revealing the coherence of the Music rather than the "thematic unities". I'm not sure whether this was what he wished to emphasise in his work, but I'm not really that interested in the <ho-ho> motives of theoreticians; it's how they help my listening and awareness that excites me; and for that limited period of Music History, Schenker has been invaluable to me.

What struck me in LMP's post was the passage

Seemed to me this that Ms Rae and all her performers were not that much further forward than I am: no real consensus on the essentials of a top performance of this work. Is it about integrating all the disparate ideas and detailed markings into some organic unity ... or playing each individual theme/section/marking 'for all it is worth' and maximum contrast, and hoping that some integrated whole somehow emerges?

... it is that conflict (for the performer certainly, and also for the listener) between the moment and the whole, the here & now and the "destination[s]" that strike me as the essence of all "radical" Music - including Beethoven (the performers have that exact problem when preparing the Grosse Fuge - how do the various sectional "moods" combine and compete to create a complete, coherent experience; in fact, do they do this? What balance of structure and fantasy do we present when we perform this), and the Schumann Fantasy ... and Sibelius; that lifelong creative pendulum between the Symphony ("the profound logic") and the Symphonic Poem, culminating in those two final "Symphonic Fantasias", Tapiola and the Seventh.

It's often those moments when Musical "style"/"language" reaches a point of rupture, when things have to change (or things just get repeated and diluted in the repetition) that composers create their most "radical" Music, where previous methodologies collapse under and are torn apart by the necessity of newer ones.

Put briefly - yes, I agree that you have "stumbled across one reason why Debussy is still regarded as a radical".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But based on its sole review and that is a truly pathetic excuse for a review.

The amazon.com site also has just one review, and that gives it a more credible 4 stars, with the case argued.

- Her version of the Debussy sonata grabs the listener with its vitality and quick-witted changes of tone. The gypsy element is brought out with flair, and altogether you can't take your ears away for a moment. Pike's fresh, animated approach really wakes up this music, which she approaches without a trace of French languor or over sophistication.

[BBMmk2]

But based on its sole review and that is a truly pathetic excuse for a review. The amazon.com site also has just one review, and that gives it a more credible 4 stars, with the case argued.

Yes,Bryn, certainly does. I read that review this morning. I am listening to the recording on Spotify at the moment. That reviewer must needs his ears testing I think.

[Barbirollians]

I enjoyed this BAL but the failure to consider what for many years was apparently( and rightly IMO ) the leader of the pack - Chung/Lupu really irked me .

[Mal]

I enjoyed this BAL but the failure to consider what for many years was apparently( and rightly IMO ) the leader of the pack - Chung/Lupu really irked me .

Yes, I re-listened to Chung/Lupu the night before, and didn't hear anything to surpass it. There seems to be a tendency to ignore the "leaders of the pack". In a way this is good, it means living artists get some money from CD sales! But it also means you shouldn't expect to hear the best on BAL.

[Mal]

... The amazon.com site also has just one review, and that gives it a more credible 4 stars, with the case argued.

... and from Santa Fe Listener who strikes me as one of the better Amazon reviewers, one of the few I'd rate up there with the professionals. Talking about the professionals, The Rough Guide select Chung/Lupu as their one and only recommendation and suggest they are "acutely sensitive to the subdued, elegiac nature of this sonata." Penguin gave them a rosette.

Given the glowing review i wondered why Santa Fe only gave four stars, maybe he was thinking of Chung/Lupu, he gave their CD five stars, even though he found their Franck sonata a bit restrained. On the Debussy sonata:

"the refinement of Chung and Lupu enhances the music. Light melody, quavering tremolo, and floating arpeggios are the stuff of Debussy's sonata, and these performers convey the atmosphere very well. The recorded sound is quite good, with no hint of digital glare in the transfer."

https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Franck-Ravel-Sonata-Violin/dp/B000VAHEPS#customerReviews

[mikealdren]

Well, the Pike/Roscoe (the "winner") was recorded in 2010, and the highly-rated Waley-Cohen/Watkins in 2014. mike.

Yes they are 'modern' but the are only two and good as the players are, they are not the modern equivalent of Heifetz of Oistrakh. I did enjoy the review of performing tradition but we could easily have dispensed with Oistrakh, Heifetz, Perlman and Mutter and concentrated on some more serious contenders. I have the Pike Roscoe recording and it's very good but I think several others are at least as good but weren't considered. From a library point of view, a missed opportunity.

[Bryn]

I would mention that I have held suspicions regarding the decision to stop broadcasting the chosen recording during a following morning's 9:00 to noon programme. With the 'iPlayer HD Sound' facility there must be some worry about that being recorded and thus hitting sales of the disc concerned. These are/were but suspicions though.

[Barbirollians]

I doubt an under the table arrangement but a policy to guide towards newer contenders if possible I could believe though as we have had a 1951 Furtwangler Brahms 1 winning ....

For me it is more a question that when there is a well known classic recording like Chung/Lupu one does expect the reviewer to explain why they do not put it in the running at least .

[Bryn]

I doubt an under the table arrangement but a policy to guide towards newer contenders if possible I could believe though as we have had a 1951 Furtwangler Brahms 1 winning ....

For me it is more a question that when there is a well known classic recording like Chung/Lupu one does expect the revised to explain why they do not put it in the running at least .

Nice predictive review(er) there.