BaL 28.04.18 - Brahms: Symphony no. 1 in C minor

[Mal]

I once heard Simon Rattle say in a Radio 3 interview (concert interval 1990s) that the desire, or attempt, to repeat a special musical experience is something akin to pornography... an extreme, perhaps controversial, way of putting it, but I think I got his (disconcerting) point.

I don't get this point at all, I think's it's just plain wrong.

So. Is building a library of classical music the same as building a collection of pornography? If so, does the same go for other collections of high art? Is building a collection of Shakespeare plays the same as building a collection of pornography. Thinking of a non-controversial comment by Harold Bloom, he stressed that a key quality of great literature is that it should inspire you with the desire to re-read it.

Surely it's the same for recorded classical music? I've just listened to Fischer's take on Haydn Symphony #84 and thought it was rather good and fancy listening to it again sometime soon. I don't think this is at all a pornographic impulse, I think it's a proper impulse following on from a proper aesthetic experience. With classical music the initial aesthetic experience, and the impulse to repeat, is very performance dependent. For instance I was dismayed by Fischer's #83, compared to Kuijken/OAE, and have no wish to repeat it. But my desire to repeat K/OAE is, I think, one of my healthier impulses, based on a healthy aesthetic experience, and a healthy desire to repeat it.

Once an experience has really taken you to the limit why would you not try to do it again? By "limit" here I'm presuming you mean the greatest pleasure one can experience in life. If you found, in general, that repeated experiences didn't do it for you a second time then, yes, it would be silly to repeat performances. But my experience is not that, listening to my favourite CDs blows me away every time. To deny myself such experiences seems like Puritanism gone mad.

In other words I think Rattle was entirely wrong, and on reflection I would think he would regret this statement. If he doesn't then he's a hypocrite, I can't think of anyone who churns out more CDs! If he really said what you said he said that would make him pornographer in chief! "I don't force them to listen to CDs twice," he might say, "Throw 'em away, especially Horenstein's Mahler, and buy my next CD..."

[Ein Heldenleben]

Presumably Rattle meant the desire to repeat a live performance identically in another live performance rather than the practice of recording a piece. He's made quite a lot of money from the latter and surely would recognise that repeated listening to a great recording has its merits.
It always intrigues me when I see a pianist schedule the same concerto night after night when on tour with an orchestra - how do they keep it fresh ? What room is there for spontaneity ?

[Barbirollians]

25 minutes in and he has only mentioned about six recordings ! No Walter or Karajan for a start.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Rattle was surely paraphrasing Celibidache's "listening to a recording is like going to bed with a photograph of Marilyn Monroe"? Many conductors brought up before the era of recordings expressed similar sentiments (if in less vivid language) about recording - Klemperer's "Lotte! Ein schwindel!", Furtwangler's arguments with recording engineers, Schnabel's concerns that there might be people listening to Schubert whilst eating a salami sandwich ... and Britten's and Menuhin's similar concerns.

No excuse for such misplaced worries these days - and for the reasons Mal mentions in his #121. Just Rattle making a controversial comment for the sake of it, as is his occasional - and wholly unnecessary for a Musician of his stature - wont.

[Mal]

25 minutes in and he has only mentioned about six recordings ! No Walter or Karajan for a start.

It's the end and still no Walter or Karajan, I'm off to listen to Walter in protest. (The choice of Furtwangler/BPO '52 was interesting though...)

[Pulcinella]

I was amused by the subsequent reference by Andrew to the forthcoming Proms performance; unless I blinked I don't think that their recording was mentioned, so no irony there then.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's the end and still no Walter or Karajan, I'm off to listen to Walter in protest. (The choice of Furtwangler/BPO '52 was interesting though...)

Don't understand how the reviewer can rule out several recordings with a sub- standard recording and then choose one with a substandard recording - magnificent performance even so . Though like you I prefer Walter .

[Barbirollians]

Liked the Chailly a lot and have ordered it . The extracts from Sir Rog's Stuttgart recording did nothing for me.

The omission of Karajan and Walter was more than a surprise.

[waldo]

Presumably Rattle meant the desire to repeat a live performance identically in another live performance rather than the practice of recording a piece.......?

That was my take, too. I remember Rattle making this sort of point in several interviews. For each performance, once must start all over again. You must create new emotions from new playing; attempting to resurrect the past will surely fail.

Let's all aim for last Tuesday's ecstacy! Now here's your downbeat.......

As to the "pornography" claim.........the problem of pornography, from an aesthetic point of view, is its mechanical, end-directed nature. The product is specifically designed to produce a certain response and this mechanistic essence is precisely mirrored in the way it is consumed. Dare I say the word "orgasm"? Well, that is the point - both for the producer and the consumer. All considerations are subordinated to this end - which is we the central reason we have trouble calling it art.

The attempt to repeat a great live experience has similarities with this, insofar as the "art" now takes on a mechanistic, even repetitive aspect. One is simply trying to reproduce the feelings, rather than doing whatever one really does need to do to produce a great performance.

Something like that anyway........

[verismissimo]

I've been restraining myself over recent days from reporting how exceptional is Furtwangler's 1947 recording with the VPO - the 4th movement coda overwhelming.

Haven't heard his recording with BPO from five years later. It sounded fab from the excerpts played - and in far better sound.

[Mal]

Liked the Chailly a lot and have ordered it...

The omission of Karajan and Walter was more than a surprise.

Back from Walter... and back in a good mood!

The horn player for Chailly/LeipzigGWH orchestra was tremendous, and I'm almost tempted. I also liked Klemperer's opening. I listened out for the horn player in Walter's performance, who's not quite as striking or well recorded, but maybe a shade warmer and more lyrical. How Walter maintains the combination of grandeur and lyricism throughout defeats me; and he gives Furtwangler a run for his money in the dynamic final movement. Having a couple of other decent performances (Guilini, Horenstein...) I don't really feel the need for another performance, on the evidence of this BAL; buying CDs might not be a pornographic impulse, but you can maybe have too much of a good thing.

[Mal]

Presumably Rattle meant the desire to repeat a live performance identically in another live performance rather than the practice of recording a piece. He's made quite a lot of money from the latter and surely would recognise that repeated listening to a great recording has its merits.

Yes, that makes more sense. I see no reason not to listen to great recordings reasonably frequently. But then we need to determine "when?" and "how often?". (Once a week/month/year/decade? When the mood takes you? When BAL inspires you to check your benchmark?)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I also liked Klemperer's opening.

Hmmm. Hearing that excerpt from the Intro made me remember why I'd parted with my copy in the late '80s, and why I haven't felt any inclination to re-invest since.. I can understand why Pet likes to hear the Timps bashing away for all they're worth, but they're only marked f, and it's as important to hear Basses (& contrabassoon) too, together with the Horns, all sustaining/iterating the tonic pedal which keeps the Tristan-esque upper lines in balance. And I prefer to hear a clearer sense of a 6/8 pulse in Klemperer's recording, either. (Loved what was played of his second movement, though.)

I enjoyed this BaL - I was greatly attracted to Jurowksi, Norrington, and Chailly ... and pleased to hear the excerpt from the Rattle set (I presume the earlier studio recording), which I forgot earlier to mention that I have, and had been very disappointed by. Very clear recording and excellent instrumental balance, I thought. And I rather enjoyed the "mischief" of his final choice - after a well-balanced discussion of various recordings, to come out not merely in favour of the Furtwangler, but to describe it unequivocally as "the greatest". (No doubt, if the "chosen one" were still played on Sunday Mornings, they'd've gone for Chailly!)

[Conchis]

Ermmm....who won, then? I was listening in the car, but reached my destination before the verdict and couldn't stop to listen.

[Barbirollians]

Ermmm....who won, then? I was listening in the car, but reached my destination before the verdict and couldn't stop to listen.

Furtwangler the BPO recording from 1952 on DG.